What No One Tells You About Relapse part 2 🏳️‍🌈 A Queer Recovery Podcast 🎙️

Today we continue our conversation on What No One Tells You About Relapse.   

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 🏳️‍🌈 Join Anthony & LouiLou for a new episode every Monday.  We record live from The Castro Country Club in San Francisco.

 🏳️‍🌈 We strive to create a brave space where we engage in topics of recovery, where there are no outside issues.

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#Queer #Recovery #LGBTQIA2S #Service #relapse #slip #spree

Transcript

Welcome and you are at the CCC where there are no outside issues my name is Anthony
I'm an alcoholic another bozo on the bus and I care about you and I'm Louis
Lou my pronouns are he and him and I'm in recovery for crystal meth an alcohol
And I'm always in search of balance and each week we strive to foster a brave
space where we can engage in conversations centered around topics of recovery
Recovery and our intention is to hold and inspire better spaces for more people in recovery by tackling issues sometimes
used to separate us.
I'm most miss my clue.
- Yeah, but before we do that, please subscribe,
like, share, like, and subscribe.
- Why are you commenting over me?
- Because I'm using a lot of notes.
- Like, come on.
- 'Cause I want you to see, I think I'm in the series.
- Like, share, and subscribe.
- Like, share, and subscribe.
- I don't know why.
I think it's 'cause when I listen to YouTubers,
that's how they say it, like, share, and subscribe.
- Is that what they say?
- Share, and subscribe, yeah.
- I know, but now the disclosure.
- I know the disclaimer, the thoughts
of being expressed on at the  CCC, including Lewis's.
Our, our, our alone we do not represent anyone but ourselves.
In other words, we're just a couple of friends behind
my cure to entertainment.
And of course, everything we talk about is for information,
purposes, general information purposes only.
Only, only.
So this is part two of our, our episode on what we,
well, I'm relapsed on what people don't tell you about relaps.
Last bit of that conversation, if you heard the last episode,
if you didn't go back now.
As we were talking about how relapse happens in stages, right?
And the last idea that we were talking about
was from the mellamous paper from 2015,
which is saying that there's these stages.
So you have an emotional relapse, you have a mental relapse,
and then there's a physical relapse,
sorry, and we were talking about our shared experiences
with that.
And so what are some of the things that jumping back in?
What are some of the things that kind of contribute
to relapse or make relapse heavier.
And I think one of the first things
that we could probably talk about is shame.
- Shame.
- Shame, shame, shame, shame.
- I just think of that.
What's that one with the none in the back with the bell?
- Shame.
- Oh, shame.
(laughing)
- I don't know what you're talking about.
- Is it a movie?
- Well, if someone in the bell.
- But you know, it's a meme.
- It is, is it a meme?
- It hundreds of.
I'm gonna throw back to Brene Brown.
But one of the things that I appreciate
that Bernie Brown says is she says that
shame leads to secrecy, isolation, and deeper use.
- Mm-hmm, totally.
- And one of the antidotes to that shame is laughter.
It's to find humor in our experiences.
If you survived it, we can find humor in that experience.
Were you gonna say something?
- I think about last episode and going back to,
like you know what you were saying,
there are some people who come up to you
and they ask you, are you done yet?
What I have learned is, I can't say that to everybody.
There are some people that I have that relationship with
that I can say it, and I think that it's important
to know when you can, because if I want to help you get
through this and understand, then I need to be thoughtful.
So it's like, again, and there's some people that,
you know, I don't have any problem.
Like I would probably say that to you because I love you.
And you know that I have your bet or hope you do.
But it's like, I'm on bitch.
Did you have fun?
(laughing)
Yeah.
- Well, you're not leading to this idea of shame, right?
They're like, oh, was that we're gonna think?
Or I mean, for me, the times that I had relapsed
and nobody noticed, I didn't say anything.
Right, then that like secret that keeps me sick,
that then brings me shame, that then brings me guilt.
- That's right.
I think holds onto that.
And because I got away with it, right?
How long can I get away with it?
And then that's this whole other form of almost
like emotional relapse, right?
- Yeah, 100%.
And you know what?
Some, I'll disclose this 'cause I haven't really
talked about this with anyone except for one of my colleagues
who's also in the program.
But I've been having a lot of,
in the last few weeks,
I've been having a lot, not just cravings,
but I've been having these thoughts about, like, well, Fuck this AA community
I'm just going to start a new community somewhere else and maybe in that community, in that
scenario of my life, I'm drinking again, which is kind of crazy to say out loud.
But I know a lot of it's not.
I know, but it feels crazy for me to say that out loud.
But if I look at the last couple of months, I'm going through or still experiencing a
a breakup that I'm still trying to recover from
and I'm still hurting over.
I'm in this very demanding role right now.
My finances have been really tight.
So there are all of these different things
and I'm having body image issues
'cause I gained weight and now I'm trying to lose weight.
And so there's all of this stuff going on.
And I--
- Please don't lose that, but.
- Yeah.
(laughing)
But so the point is that like,
so there are all these things and my program
around me has like kind of faded a little bit.
- So can I tell you, it is so important
that you said what you said about like the island
and drinking and all that?
Because I do, I believe that we all have those thoughts.
- 100% - I don't care how much time
it's like there's always there.
And I think the shape, what creates the shame
and whatever is that we share it with each other.
We need to talk about it.
We need to talk about it
Like for some reason it's taboo to talk about but hello. We're alcohol alcoholics addicts
Yeah, you know that would be shocking. We're surprising if we didn't have those thoughts every now and then
I would be cured
Yeah, yeah, well in that range too. I'm just like this idea of emotional sobriety right and how often like that or relapse in my emotional sobriety then
For the underlying results in me picking up. That's a good. That's a really good point. Yeah, that's a really good point
- Oh my God.
- That's a really, really good point.
And I think the other part of this is that when we are having this kind of like strong
shame or guilt kind of reaction to relapse, it's also robbing us of the opportunity to see
relapse as information gathering, right?
It's like, the first thing I want to say is that whenever I see someone who relapses
and comes back, I am always,
I always have this profound gratitude that they didn't die
because that's like a real outcome.
- Absolutely.
- We see it all the time, if you've been in the rooms long enough.
You know, just in the last couple of years,
we've lost a couple of friends, right?
- Yeah.
- And so when I see someone come back from a relapse,
like the thing that I wish they knew that I was feeling
was like this gratitude and love that they're alive,
despite how mangled they might feel.
And so I forgot where I was going with all of that.
I think I just wanted to make sure I like some time talking about like, you know, you
can die and then you come back.
You die and then you come back?
No, no, no.
I mean, like, I remember what I was going to say.
He's a bad guy.
I remember what I was going to say, which is that it's a misopportunity, right?
Like a relapse can teach us where we are most vulnerable.
Yeah.
Right?
Like, all of my relapses were around guys.
Oh, that's it.
No, they were all around like relationships are dating or hooking up self-image.
So low self-esteem, right?
Like all of my relapses are around that.
- You know, I feel like in the beginning,
like if you're a chronic relapse or sometimes,
you know how they start to kind of,
the amount of space in between the relapses.
- They can, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- And I've heard people come back and acknowledge
just what you're saying that, you know, oh wow.
So I realized what I wasn't doing,
what I wasn't willing to do.
And then I made, made whatever changes.
- Exactly.
And I think part of what would,
I think would be helpful for people who relapse is that if the 12-step culture, at least
in the one that all of us are most familiar with, if there were conversations that were
had from that place, one of curiosity, what was going on?
You know, like what happened?
You know, as opposed to, are you done yet?
Right?
Like, I just don't see how that's how helpful.
- I'm gonna say this, even that conversation,
you gotta find the right time to have it,
because I can't have it with someone who's just five days in.
First off, go get some sleep.
Rest, come back, let's talk.
And then, I've just started a good friend of mine
who was out and is back in the program now.
I've just gotten to the place where now I feel like,
let's have these conversations.
because it's like, I didn't know what you were going through.
And we're all selfish.
I've got my life.
It's like, I would like to know.
But I also am not the type person.
I don't want to be that person that automatically
assumes just because you're doing something different
that you're on the verge of relapse.
That's right.
I don't want to be that person, because that's bad too,
because it's like, that's going to cause a resentment
if anything.
That's right.
And I think that line of thought also
goes back to this idea of shaming and relapsing
for the relapse with this idea of shame is that like,
I'm having all these thoughts and I don't know what to do.
And who do I tell?
And for me, there's this idea of I need to project
that I'm okay to everybody else.
- Oh yeah.
- And I think there's some therapy that can happen later
with that, like why I do that.
But like, that is my thing is like,
let me project that I'm okay.
And then when I'm not okay, I don't tell anybody.
- Yeah.
- You know, into how do I change the attitude
or how do I change that idea of shame that I'm not okay
to make it okay to then voice to then not relapse?
- Yeah, that's quite beautiful.
Yeah, and there's a lot of insight there,
and I feel like, you know, Lewis says,
"A person has to be ready."
- Right.
- Like a person has to be ready and willing
to arrive at a place where they can see those things
or have someone be willing to have someone outside of them
help them see those things.
I think there's another layer here that I think is unique to,
and I wanna stay away from using the word unique,
but I do think there's a layer here
that applies specifically to queer people in recovery,
so like LGBTQ+ folks, specifically it's around,
so the idea of minority stress, right,
is that there are very specific things
that impact like LGBTQ+ identified people, right?
And so you might have people that are already coming
into the program with some type of stigma
that they were holding onto.
Like I know when I came in,
I had just found out I was HIV positive
and I was holding that stigma with me a lot.
That's a very unique pressure.
I was also dealing with some like internalized racism, right?
'Cause I was coming into these spaces
where it was like all gay white men
and many of which were like older gay white men.
- Oh yeah.
- And so, you know, we have issues related
race, queer identity, class, right?
And all of those things, we can't pretend
like those things are not in the room.
The reason why I said I wanted it to stay away
from using Unique is because, you know,
and the big book and Alcoholics Anonymous,
it says like the line about terminal uniqueness, right?
So there's a lot of folks who, when they come in,
they're like, well, I'm very different
and this is why this is an apply to me, right?
And the truth is that like, no, actually,
you're not very different, fundamentally,
and I'm here to tell you that now.
Like fundamentally, if you're dealing with addiction,
we are fundamentally like the mechanics are the same.
Right, like the details might be different.
Our trauma might be different.
The stories we tell ourselves might be different.
And I'm a gay brown guy who was born and raised in the projects.
I'm not gonna tell you that like those things don't matter
because they do matter.
And I also get to make decisions about how I invest
in my recovery.
and I can look at those things as reasons to stay out
and continue drinking and using,
or I could use those experiences
as a way of being a service to other people.
- Yeah, I think for me,
the only way I feel it can help.
Like when I share in meetings,
I usually try to share.
Like I love shares when folks are talking about,
okay, I don't like this,
you know, I'm not feeling comfortable,
I'm going through something or whatever,
and I usually try to be as honest as I can with,
And then also, when I am talking to someone who is going through a relapse or whatever,
it's like the best advice that I got is, okay, don't make it about you.
Number one, don't make their thing about you and be there for them.
Be there for them if you can, because it's like there is still cases where it's like,
you know, I'm going to love you from across the street because there's somebody who's
going to be able to show up for you if I can't.
But actually, let's circle back around 'cause it's like,
I lost my thought, but it's okay.
- No, it's okay, it's all right.
But Jordan, was there something coming up for you over there?
- No, I think it's just like for me,
it's how do I debunk all the different myths
I already have that I've created around relapse
so that I can help myself.
- Yeah.
- And then you eventually help somebody else.
- So I love, I love that, I feel like we're going
in that direction because then there's the question
how do we combat it?
- Right.
- Relapse for a lot of us will sometimes seem inevitable.
A lot of people relapse, it's part of recovery.
I don't care what someone says to you
in a meeting where they say,
'cause I've heard this said from the floor before,
it's like, relapse is not part of recovery.
Well, you know what, sometimes it is.
- I like when it's where relapse doesn't have to be
a part of recovery.
- It doesn't relapse, it doesn't have to be,
but it can be.
- And then we encourage to come back
to come back and to dive right back in,
to pick up where, you know.
- That's right, yeah.
Exactly, and so one reframe that we can have about it
was, you know, it was a mistake.
And by mistake, I mean, a mistake in that,
it was behavior, for example,
that wasn't aligning with my values.
That's the way I would define a mistake.
Because if you're coming back and you're thinking to yourself,
I didn't really wanna do that,
or I wanted this other thing more, right?
That's something to think about.
But the takeaway is that regardless of what you're calling it,
it doesn't have to be a catastrophe.
- No, not at all.
- It doesn't have to, even going as far as to say,
like maybe there was a lot of destruction, right?
Vehicular manslaughter, or I don't know,
you like burned down a building, right?
Like that may seem on the surface pretty catastrophic.
And one of the things that I like about the program is that
and the experiences that we've had while we were drinking
and using it become the ways that we can be
of service to other people.
- Yeah.
- So nothing has lost you.
- I love that I do.
Like, you still have work to do.
(laughs)
Like I'm all, and again, I think it goes back to,
if we are friends like that, that's fine.
Because the times when I've sashayed up to somebody
who I don't get along with that well,
that has not, it can't be good because,
if I don't like you, nothing that comes out of your mouth
is gonna be of any value to me.
- Right, right, right.
And I don't mean to be like flipping around things
like vehicular manslaughter.
But what I'm saying,
well the reason why I bring up that example
is because I've heard this both professionally and personally,
I will hear someone say something like,
well that doesn't apply to me because I killed my mom.
Well no one's ever said that,
but like it'll always be this extreme example, right?
It'll be, will like, especially if you're doing like character defects in step four, and
you know, sometimes sexual abuse comes up in that and someone will say, "Well, I don't
have to see my part in that sexual abuse," right?
And I think those are kind of clever ways that addiction tries to keep us in this mentality
that is actually self-destructive.
And what I'm trying to suggest here is that when there are these situations or experiences
that are life changing, right? That doesn't mean that your life has to end.
Yeah. Right. It doesn't mean that this person who will forever be a quote unquote,
"fuck up," it doesn't mean any of those things. Yeah, exactly.
Addiction is first and foremost, an illness. And that's how we look at it.
And that's how we treat it. And I guess I caution myself in saying that I don't want to also,
So I want to view my realizes as just some mistakes,
but I don't want to minimize it to the fact too.
So little that like, I don't learn from it.
- Yeah, 'cause that can be,
I can be happy to have, like,
in my opinion there are some individuals who like,
I just had a slip or whatever.
And then the problem is,
is like believing that you can always come back
because I've had folks who,
especially now with Fentanyl or whatever,
they don't go out thinking--
- That was my, yeah.
- I don't go out thinking they're gonna die.
- 100%.
- 100%.
- So it's like,
and I think the thing that helps me to be better
is what she said, remembering that this is a disease.
And it's not that somebody is lazy
or that someone, it's at this disease.
And at this point, they have not gotten to a place
where they believe that they can overcome this.
- That's right, yeah.
And in my opinion, the best way to return from a relapse is to, number one, find support.
Right?
Like the last thing that I would want someone who's going through a relapse is to be like
isolated and alone, right?
Tell the truth to at least one person.
Shall the truth and shame the devil?
You know, it's a returning like, and to return to those tools immediately, instead of
going through like a shame spiral, right?
This is the other thing that I want to say, but earlier is that what I think, so addiction
is cunning, baffling, powerful as it says in the text.
And this is how I think it gets unnoticed.
So when a person relapses or anything happens, what ends up happening is in my opinion, what
addiction wants to do is an addiction wants to isolate you.
addiction wants to pull you away from your resources, it wants to pull you away so that all that's
left for you is addiction.
All that's left for you is the thought inside of your head that will lead you to a drink
that will ultimately lead you to death or destruction.
And so when we're thinking about addiction in this way, when you're experiencing go or
you're experiencing shame or anything else, that's heavy.
No, in my opinion, that I think that's addiction and it's addiction trying to take you out
and the best way to combat that is self love,
its connection, it's telling the truth, right?
- I had a friend, I had a friend moved away,
but recently posted something on Facebook
that they had suffered like a really kind of dark relapse.
So I took my time, but what I ended up posting was like,
"You know, I love you, and I want you to know
that you're moving in the right direction
because you're sharing this with us in this form.
I mean, because you could very well be keeping it to yourself
because number one, you don't owe us anything.
But the fact that you're talking about it means that
there's something in you that wants what we are able to offer.
- Yeah.
- It also makes me think too like my relapses,
but when I would come back to the rooms,
I hated raising my hand.
hated it with a passion.
And I refused, I refused.
And then finally, I talked to my sponsor,
I shut out to my sponsor.
He was like, raising your hand is not for you.
It's for the other people in there
to see that you can come back from the relapse.
It's for the other people to see that there are people
and they're in the same shoes.
- Exactly, yeah.
- But it was so, it took, it still to this day,
even the thought of raising my hand just like,
hurts me.
- Yeah, and I think there's also kind of,
yeah, of course, right?
And there are some meetings where you don't have
to raise your hand because of exactly that.
I also think there are these red flags
that are kind of really subtle, right?
For example, if you find yourself Googling shit like,
if there's orange juice in my vodka,
is it really drinking or like,
you know what I mean if it's it?
(laughing)
Is it really drinking if it's a mimosa
or something like that?
Or, well, if you drink a gallon of a mimosa
- Or if like, you know, you find yourself like
just listening to Lana Del Ray by yourself
and your room, right?
There are these little things that happen
where you're like, you know,
they're kind of like these little red flags.
For me, my red flags are, or my telltale signs are,
my apartments a mess, my dishes aren't washed,
I'm overspending, I'm compromising my time, right?
So I'm using time that I would normally spend on myself
or recovery on other things.
I'm finding myself saying I'm too busy,
whenever I lean into those, like in that territory,
that's one like, they're stuff going on.
And I've learned that through my relapses.
I learned that through my relapses.
So I mean, there are a couple of things that I think
we all want to remind people of, right?
And one of those things is that one mistake
does not erase or progress.
- Not at all.
- Not at all.
- And even if you continue to relapse,
Like we're here, come back.
For me, I think it's so important
that I make sure that I'm a safe space,
that I'm a safe space for because it's like,
you know, you get it when you get it.
- That's right.
- Yeah, agreement.
- Yeah.
And I think the other thing here is that recovery,
you know, we say progress, not perfection,
but I think recovery is resilience, not perfection.
- Absolutely.
- Right, and that resilience is,
it's in the day to day, you know,
It's in the adjusting to the day to day.
It's the weathering of storms.
It's like that is recovery.
And I think that's one of the things that makes recovery
so special is that people who are sober
and working a program, they're showing up
to those life experiences like wide awake
with all their feelings.
- Yeah, absolutely.
And it's not easy all the time.
But it's like it's such a gift to know
that I can walk through the same things
and not feel like I need a crutch or something
to kind of, well, I have a different crutch.
I have the fellowship, I have the connection
that I so long for and I have a higher power.
- Yeah, yeah.
You know, speaking of that, it's so interesting
because, and I'm telling on myself here,
because like I've removed myself
from like queer recovery spaces after my breakup
because they didn't, and today still don't feel safe
for me. For a bunch of different reasons, I won't go into them, but they haven't felt
safe to me. And what's really interesting to me about that is that it feels a little
bit like an emotional relapse. And the reason why I say that is because I'm noticing that
there's some rigidity around the way that I'm feeling. And I think the way I'm working
my recovery around that is by acknowledging, like, yeah, I know that I'm having this feeling
right now. And like the goal for me is to kind of like to return or reintegrate myself
and not to find excuses not to be involved in in in 12 step in general. Which yeah, it's
just something I'm seeing a lot. Yeah, I think that's that's part of the work right. And
For me like do you fucking these myths of relapses right as to say what I'm thinking and being honest being open to somebody
He doesn't have to be a whole room of people
Just to one person saying these are my the craziest thoughts I'm having and if I don't say it out loud
Then I know that this could potentially lead to yeah, yes, yeah, I mean
Yeah, absolutely and I think I'm trying to think of like the the things that I've learned here recently which is
- You know, I hear a lot of people say,
like, well, you shouldn't shit where you eat
or you shouldn't dip your pen in the company ink,
'cause Lewis likes to say--
- I would say that, it's like--
- If you're a pen in the company in.
(laughing)
And it's so crazy, 'cause I never thought
that would apply to me in the way that it's doing right now,
where I'm like, I'm feeling intensely like,
oh, this is why we say this, you know?
- Yeah, but I feel like,
I feel like I know where you're going.
I feel like it's not that cutting dry.
Well, yeah, I mean, I like what our mutual friend,
Michael says about it, which is he said,
and that's another learning opportunity.
It's like, how do you navigate those spaces?
Yeah, exactly.
Because it could happen anywhere.
Exactly.
You could be at work and just like a coworker.
But I think the last thought too that I wanted to land on here
is that relapse or not, everyone listening, you're worthy of love.
Absolutely.
You're worthy of belonging, recovery, no matter what.
You can have your deserving of having peace of mind and feeling connected.
and shame and guilt and all of those things
stand in the way of that and they don't need to.
- Yeah, and sometimes I don't need to stand
in the way of myself either.
- That's right. - That's right.
- It sounds like we're landing the plane.
- So the ccastro country club,
according to Anthony, is a safe and sober community
center for all people and a refuge for the LGBTQ recovery
community. - What was that about?
- Well, because it's like, it's Anthony,
we're like, it sounds like we're--
- It's a satellite because you got your last word in.
- No, one of you guys, there was that,
okay, first up we're a podcast.
- I'm kidding, I'm kidding.
- We're a podcast and there's this low one.
I was like, I guess we're landing in the plane.
- There was low.
- There was low.
We provide programs and services
that help change slides by supporting personal growth.
- Our vision is to reduce the suffering of addiction
by connecting people to community opportunity and support.
- You can find more information
including all the ways to contact us at www.castrocountryclub.org/podcast.
>> And tune in every, but not, you don't have the tune in.
>> No tune in.
>> Just wherever you get podcasts, catch a new episode every Monday.
>> Listen to us wherever you listen to podcasts.
>> Yes, exactly.
Just keep coming back.
>> Bye.
>> Keep on coming back.
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