What No One Tells You About Relapse 🏳️‍🌈 A Queer Recovery Podcast 🎙️

Today's topic is What No One Tells You About Relapse.   

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 🏳️‍🌈 Join Anthony & LouiLou for a new episode every Monday.  We record live from The Castro Country Club in San Francisco.

 🏳️‍🌈 We strive to create a brave space where we engage in topics of recovery, where there are no outside issues.

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#Queer #Recovery #LGBTQIA2S #Service #relapse #slip #spree

Transcript

Welcome, you are at the CCC.
Where there are no outside issues my name's Anthony, I'm an addict and an alcoholic,
another bozo on the bus, and I care about you.
And my name's Louis Lue, my pronouns are he and him, and I'm recovering from crystal meth
and alcohol, and I'm always in search of balance.
Yes, in each week we strive to foster a brave space, where we can engage in conversations
centered around topics of recovery.
And our intention is to hold and inspire better spaces for more people in recovery by tackling
issues sometimes used to separate us.
But before we do that, please subscribe, like, share, and comment on this episode.
Ding that bell.
Ding that bell.
Tell your friends about us.
Send Anthony a message on one of the sites.
Okay, all right.
Okay.
Well, I mean, if you're-- I have something to listen to wherever you are.
Wherever you are, look to your left, look to your right.
Tell that person about this podcast.
Absolutely.
(laughing)
- It's really good.
- It's really good.
- It's really good.
(laughing)
- And now the disclaimer,
the thoughts and opinions expressed on that,
the CCC are ours and we do not represent anyone,
but ourselves.
In other words,
we're just a couple of friends behind my cure to entertain you.
And of course, everything we talk about
is for general information purposes only.
Hey assholes.
(laughing)
- Are you talking to me?
(laughing)
- So the monsters are working with us.
- The monsters are working with us.
So for folks listening,
We have a bunch of energy drinks
because we're gonna be doing a few recordings today.
And Monster I think is like an anti-gay company, isn't it?
(laughing)
- Yes!
- Not sponsoring the podcast.
- Not sponsoring the podcast.
- They are not sponsoring the podcast,
but I was looking like I went over to Walgreens
and I could not find any.
- That's okay.
- Red bulls.
- Yeah, I really appreciate that you got us these.
- Thank you.
- Yeah, how's everyone doing?
- I am fabulous.
How are you doing?
We we have Jordan on the mic today. I'm here introduce yourself. What's your intro? Oh?
If you were a real house wife what would your intro be my intro? Yeah, you're would I'm not here to make friends
I don't know my answer me I'm a Gemini your Gemini. Yeah, period
Yeah, well Jordan
How are you doing? I'm good. I was just in Houston over the weekend for a gay soccer tournament. Oh, we're talking about
We took third.
You're doing shit.
You're doing shit.
I'm very gay.
We took third and Houston has a cute little gay Easter party called Bunnies on the Bayoon.
Oh, that's super cute.
And so all the gays were little bunny outfits and--
Oh, that's pretty adorable.
--Rubble, just little river in downtown Houston.
Do you have fun?
Yeah, it was good.
It was good.
Did you have fun?
I did.
Oh, God.
Yeah, it was.
It was very cute.
Oh, yeah.
That's really cute.
Yeah.
- You know, it's interesting.
Well, I won't even go there.
I was gonna say, like, I really miss playing soccer
with you guys.
- You wanna know I was coming back?
- I was just gonna say, I don't fucking have time
to scratch my arms.
- That's all.
- I mean, that is personal assistant.
- Yeah, I was like, "What's this like?"
- No, we're not doing that this night.
- Nice try.
- Well, it was nice about traveling
with all my soccer friends was that I told,
"Hey, I'm sober."
Just so you know, like, this is the expectation,
managing expectations.
I'm not drinking, I'm not doing any drugs.
And they held me accountable,
and they held themselves accountable to not ask or offer,
but I was around it and was able to do that.
- What do you feel like you were able to access any
of the tools that you learned?
- I did plan ahead.
A couple weeks ago, I ran into a fellow
who was visiting from Dallas at a meeting.
So I connected with him.
I said, "Hey, I'm going to Houston.
"Who do you know?
"He connects me with somebody."
So I went to--
- It's not that cute black guy?
- It was a cute black guy
(laughing)
- Absolutely.
- Louis can say that he's Black.
(laughing)
- Well, he is Black.
And so he connected with so many of Houston.
So I went to a couple meetings while I was there,
connected with a few folks.
Yeah, so that was nice.
Nice.
I think just also being honest with myself
and saying this is the expectation.
Yeah, I love that.
I don't know how long you've been on this podcast
and you've still moved away from the mic.
It's--
How about you, Lewis?
How are you doing?
I'm good.
I'm good.
Do you know what's--
so this week's been really good, because I feel like there's
a shift at work for me.
like I've been able to kind of get really into like my merchandising.
And the cool thing about is like I constantly seeing the growth.
Like every time I look at things I see them, it's almost like I see them through
a different eye. So I'm having fun at work again.
Nice. Yeah. Exactly. That's awesome. Yeah. That's important. It is important.
And what about you? Well, I've been kind of sick for the last few days.
Yeah.
I have a quote you don't have to share in a specific way.
- Oh, he's generally because he's like,
we don't know the details.
- We change it, and he's body fluid.
(laughing)
- I've been sick for the last few days.
I'm getting better.
I like conserved all of my energy today to be here.
So it's really good to see the two of you.
And I got to see some folks at the club
that I haven't seen in a really long time.
- I saw Anna and Devon and Jason and Andrew
and Sean and Zachary and--
- The Rumper Bumper, Stumper Blue.
(laughing)
- But it was really nice to see everyone.
And I've gotten a few calls from folks
concerned that they haven't seen me around,
which is really sweet.
- Have you noticed this, my turn?
I've been trying to do a little more communicating
with you guys throughout the week.
- I have noticed that.
- Yeah, 'cause it's like,
- Yeah.
- It's like, well yeah, especially since
we meet the way we do, it's like, I'm always,
I wanna know what's going on with you.
- Oh, okay.
- I could use it like a FaceTime call in the evening.
- Oh, I love that.
Yeah, you know that I love, you know,
I don't wanna get too off track,
but I am trying to do more of that,
unlike trying to, you know,
I spoke with my therapist today,
like just briefly, the 10 minutes,
we had a check-in 'cause,
because schedule, but we were talking about,
I was talking about how like,
I do feel like a lot of my recovery tools
that I haven't been using them.
You know, like my go-to's,
and this is a nice segue into our topic for today.
- Absolutely.
I haven't been using a lot of my recovery tools.
One, because I've been very busy,
but I'll never, for myself, accept that I'm too busy
because we're all working with the same amount
of hours in a day, and it's about priorities.
But I also want to be sensitive
that sometimes people are working a lot.
But the point is that even then,
I haven't been really using my recovery tools.
So for example, reaching out to people,
being of service and stuff like that.
- I feel like it's getting,
and not to go too far, but it's like getting creative
at the beginning, 'cause it's a natural thing,
you're gonna get busier.
And then getting some acceptance around the choices
that you have to make.
- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- That's a tough one.
As a tough one where I was like, you know,
when I decided to add Wednesday,
I don't go to a meeting on Tuesday, Wednesday.
There was a, every now and then,
I'll pop into like the people of color meeting,
but Wednesday I've decided, I'm staying home,
I'm gonna do it the eight o'clock online.
- Yeah, 100%.
Yeah, I mean, I've, you know, like I've been on
a dating app recently and I've been noticing--
- That's where you're getting all this,
that's what I was looking for.
- How did you recommend that?
- So I've been--
(laughing)
So I've been on this dating app and I noticed,
just briefly this last week, I noticed that I was like,
going on date, storing time,
that I'd normally dedicated to myself.
So like, time that I normally would have used
to go to the gym or like time that I would have used
to like wind down at home and like going on these dates.
And I had this kind of like moment today
where I was like, what am I doing?
Like this is time that I reserved for myself
and maybe I don't have the availability to date
or maybe I need to be like more strategic or.
So yeah, about recovery.
Yeah, without recovery.
So today's episode is what?
No one tells you about relapsing.
(singing)
(laughing)
That was it.
That was the sound.
Yeah, that was it.
- Yeah, yeah, well, no one tells you about relapsing.
So, you know, when we're talking about,
relapsing is really interesting
because there are so many different ways
of like having that conversation.
There are some programs where,
they don't really talk about relapsing, right?
We talk about like return to use.
There are programs, for example,
that where you aren't counting days that you've abstain,
but you're counting the space between uses, right?
So it's a difference between saying,
I have seven days, so we're clean between like,
oh, there's been like 10 days between my last use, right?
Those are different ways of measuring periods of recovery
or like recovery in general.
And so there are a lot of things I think that people
don't talk about while we're talking about relapsing, right?
There's, oh my God, hold on my Amazon orders.
(laughing)
Sorry, I had to let someone in.
I think that was God lightening up the mood a little bit.
- Oh my goodness.
- I thought that mood was lighter already.
- I'm sorry.
(laughing)
- I feel like a dick,
'cause I'm the one who's like,
"Guys turn your phones off."
- Mm-hmm.
- Here, let me,
sorry, everyone.
- So back to relapsing.
- Yeah, so back to relapsing.
- Go ahead, for me.
- Well, I think my thing with relapsing
and counting time,
is it like,
there's,
I feel like there is two different camps, right?
Is it like, time is not a tool,
but then the other side is,
Oh, well, how much time do you have?
It's like the sense of respect or seniority
when you have more time,
but we don't also say time is not a tool.
And so when I have relapsed,
that's like a big rabbit hole I go down is like,
well, I have to start over now.
I'm back at zero.
What does this mean?
All the stuff that happened before,
and I go down that huge rabbit hole by myself.
- Right, and I wanna come back to that idea
because there's a thing called like the,
it'll come back to me in a second, but yes, right?
Like you're not alone in that experience for sure.
And so there certainly, I've talked about
before where there are relapses in my story,
especially in the beginning.
But it thought maybe let's jump into kind of some
of the myths around relapsing,
'cause you've kind of brought them up.
So I'm thinking of four myths in particular,
and I'm curious what the four of you think.
I mean, the two of you.
(laughing)
- You mean the glasses?
- I'm like, whoa!
This is, this is awesome.
- It's real good.
(laughing)
- Ooh, that is real good.
(laughing)
- Yeah, the four of you.
So, okay, so myth number one,
relapse means you failed, right?
Myth number two, you have to start over from day one.
Myth number three, relapse undoes all your progress.
And myth number four is your week if you relapse.
Let's let that stoo for a little bit, a little simmer.
But I just wanted to share a quick stat that I found
which is that research shows that relapse rates
for substance use disorders are between 40 to 60%.
Which is similar to other chronic illness
is like diabetes and hypertension, right?
So in those cases, when we think about it,
it's not failure, right?
It's information.
It's part of the expected course of the illness
that there's going to be some kind of relapse.
And recovery is often one of those places where like,
there's this like hard line
and there isn't as much grace around it.
- Yeah.
- Something that could cure someone's thinking.
- I think the problem is other folks.
Or no, actually let's go to the real problem.
The real problem is if I don't have acceptance around where I'm at, and that's the struggle
when your early recovery or when you're guards down, that you're most susceptible to other
people's take on what you're doing.
I don't think that relapses a failure.
I've never experienced it while being in rooms, but I think that what I heard and what
I subscribe to is I'm surprised.
I'm never surprised when people go out.
I'm surprised that people stay in,
because if you use it like I used,
it is pretty amazing that we have managed
to string along any recovery.
Because I remember the conversations I would have
leading up to when I was telling the whole neighborhood,
I'd go on a treatment and I wouldn't go.
Yeah.
(laughing)
I had the best intentions, but I just didn't have the strength or I didn't have the courage,
maybe the courage to do it, to imagine that life could be different.
Yeah, so.
Yeah, Jordan, do you have something?
Well, no, I think just, some of those myths is what I just spoke to, right?
This idea that I have failed, right, this idea that I had to start over from square one.
I think part of that is, like you're saying, self-induced,
negative self-talk, right?
And part of it too is I mean,
within the rooms where people talk,
and my thing is like, I know what I say in my head
when someone comes back from a relapse,
like I can only imagine what people say in their heads,
but then my other thought of that is,
why don't you even care?
- Right, right.
- It's hard not to, I mean, that's the top of it.
- Yeah, I mean, so there's a lot of things
kind of like mixing up together there.
So like, so the idea that I want to come back to
based on what you were seeing earlier is this idea called
the the abstinence violation effect
are you all familiar with that?
- No, because that's, that's, that's,
that's the shit that we know.
(laughing)
- That's the shit that we know.
(laughing)
So what happens is it's one or person who's been like
abstaining from a behavior like gambling, drinking,
whatever it is, they have a slip, right?
And then following that slip,
they have like intense feelings of like shame
and guilt and self blame, right?
And why this is important is because
it's an emotional response to the relapse.
And so part of what makes that even more difficult
because I think a lot of people, this effect happens,
is that then it gets fed by the people around them
sometimes, right?
And so I've had experiences where when I have relapse,
I haven't had that experience because there were people around me actually helping me out
of shame and helping me out of guilt.
But then you can have the experience where people may not be outrightly, outrightly.
They might not outright say things to you about like your relapsing or about whatever your
behaviors are about like there's like a sense.
But when you're in a shame or guilt spiral, it doesn't matter what anybody does or say
Because like I think that I think that the thing that makes this not an exact is because you obviously do have some people who judge
Mm-hmm, but you ask some people who don't and who are supportive
But then it's the individual who matters who is so kind of going through like I was thinking the second one the second one
The myth the myth on the on the your list of the four myths. Okay. Yeah. I was thinking it's like
Okay, so
about starting over.
It's almost different depending on what it is.
Because if you're a crystal meth addict,
I used to struggle with when I would have them come back,
like, what do I do?
Because if you're doing this to 12 steps,
you have to go back to step one.
Like, you don't lose what you have because I do believe
that we're always, and everybody's working
the steps in their own way.
It's just that when you're working with a sponsor,
working a little more formally.
But as far as going back, and there shouldn't be any shame in it,
and there shouldn't be any, like this feeling that you need to move forward
is this is what's off.
That we're in a race.
I've got to be there before, I've got to finish this before June.
Right.
Well, I think that's the part that's tricky.
And it's one of the ways that I think 12 step can be harmful.
So all of the things that are in 12 steps,
so the counting of days, going back to step one,
like all of those things are in the program by design.
And by extension of that,
they also kind of create a culture around
gaining and losing time, right?
So even if we say like to Jordan's point,
Well, we don't say that time is a tool, is that what you said?
There is a way that when you say,
oh, I'm raising my hand as a newcomer,
I have two days or something like that,
that it kind of does reinforce this idea
that there is some type of scorekeeping.
I think the other thing too is going back to one.
It's also kind of like a social version
or it's another way of telling someone,
yeah, you messed up, you have to start over.
Although I understand why it's structured that way, right?
Like the reason why we go back to step one is because well,
then you didn't do step one if you relive straight or like,
or like that's at least the kind of like guiding principle behind it.
I feel, yeah, I feel like too.
Okay.
So the drama, this is the drama of all of this is usually in
earlier recovery.
Yeah.
Because the conversation starts to change about time and about,
about counting because where I'm at now is I believe I've come to a place where I'm understanding
that you get to initially early recovery. I need it, this structure. I need it to start
committing to finishing some shit because I wasn't finishing stuff. I need it.
Yeah, Lewis, that's a really good point but I wasn't sure if Jordan had anything.
That's a really good point. I love that you just made the distinction between early recovery and
and maybe long-term recovery,
because in early recovery,
and this is both my experience
in what I've also seen professionally is early recovery
is when all of the guards, the guardrails,
all of the guardrails, all of the routines,
all of the kind of heavy lifting is so important
in the very beginning, especially if you're returning
from a return to use, or if you're coming into the program
for the first time, that time becomes so crucial
on one end because like neurologically,
you're going through withdrawal,
you might be going through post-acute withdrawal,
there's a lot of stuff going on,
so you need something that makes you safe, right?
And so in early recovery,
that's when all of that stuff does feel really fresh.
- Yeah, exactly.
- Like all of the different, the details about like time.
- And it's unfortunate, and it's unfortunate,
but you have to give yourself time,
and you get to, when you get to a place where you realize,
I can do whatever I want in this.
Like, you know the most freeing thing about this recovery
is that I don't have to do anything I don't want to do.
I get to do it.
I choose to do it.
And I think that, and this is the unfortunate thing
for it, whatever, when someone's struggling
with the idea if they want to do it or not.
Because I think in the book, that's another big part.
It's like when they talk about working with others,
it's like, you know what, there's always this undertone,
like it's serious business,
but you need to make sure the person wants to do it.
- Yeah, 100%.
- And it's like, we're like,
okay, so 12 step is flawed.
- Mm-hmm.
- It's not the perfect or whatever,
but for those that are wanting to do it,
and are wanting to do the work and they get past it,
then the gift is that I look back at it and say,
oh, this is easy.
This was, I made it difficult.
- Yeah.
Going back to the idea of the abstinence violation effect,
the way it's usually experiences,
it's you know that gill and shame
and all of that stuff that follows?
The part that gets really tricky is that's the way
of punishment, self punishment.
And that rather than see it as a slip,
it's seen as something more universal or true.
So then a person's like, well, I blew it.
I'm a fucking failure.
Like, why am I even bothering?
And then that just leads to either a longer relapse
or a return to use.
Also something else is very different
depending on how attractive you are.
- What are you saying right now?
- What are you saying right now?
- And I don't mean just physical attraction.
I'm talking about, like, if you have an attractive person
now, would you or whatever,
if people like you a lot, the treat, like for me,
there are some people that, like, I find,
I thought I'd be not careful that I'm more tolerant of their,
their slips or their, their,
well, I mean, you're talking about that's something,
I mean, it's related, but that's another conversation.
But hey, that's a whole, you're talking about, like,
let's put that in the parking lot.
Well, yeah, I mean, you're talking about lookism,
which is definitely something that is an issue
that we have among gay men.
That's everybody heads to that bed.
Lookism?
Well, I mean, yeah, I mean, I think it is,
it is, you know, we do see it's universal,
It's well documented. There's studies at show that like if you're attractive you're treated better get paid better
That's why it was nice to you when you were left. Oh
My goodness
Come on over
Oh my god bless
Okay, so let's go so the four myths are
First myth is Lewis is a safe person to be around
Yes
But the four myths are relapse equals total failure.
- No, no, that's total myth.
- Yeah, back to day one, no matter what.
So the myth behind there being that like,
it's like you lost all of your recovery,
you lost all the things you learned, which isn't true.
It's certainly not true in my case one.
My last relapse saved my life.
My last relapse is the relapse that I need it for shit
to like finally click and I had several relapses
and that was the one and I have the most I've ever had.
Because, you know, like the text says, like I conceded to my innermost self.
- Absolutely.
- But I had to, I had six years of, I was like, I was a couple days shy of six years of
recovery and I went out.
And so at the time, and I remember I had all this guilt and I felt horrible about it for
such a long time.
But then looking back, I'm like, "Oh, what a blessing.
I didn't lose that time."
Like it just took me, what it took me.
- Yeah.
- Yeah.
And you know, going back to the third myth, which is, you know, you lose everything you learn.
No, we don't lose everything you learn.
And then the last one is it's proof you're not serious.
Oh.
That's the last myth.
Oh my God.
That feels so true sometimes.
Let's hear it.
It's proof to who?
Oh, good.
Love that question too.
Love that question too.
Let's go.
Yeah.
And then just like, okay, so in my personal experience, right, my recovery journey, I had
started and recovery many years ago and every two weeks I would return to
every relapse every two weeks every two weeks and finally I was like 30 days
every 30 days every 30s and then it turned into 60 right so and then so I would
come back from a relapse and there is always somebody are you done yet yeah are
you done yet yeah or you want to keep going are you done and it's just like I
don't know that was it helpful maybe more mad I don't know if that's helpful
(laughing)
- Yeah, I agree with you.
And I think what you're speaking to
are the cultural things.
That's why I, you know,
12 step is not perfect.
It's made up of people and people are imperfect.
And yeah, that's one of those cultural things
where like you hear it brought up
and it's like, who is that helpful for?
I'm sure in some conversation,
somewhere maybe that was helpful,
but who is that helpful for?
- It's probably helpful for the person who says it
because I used to struggle in the beginning
when, 'cause when I came in,
I thought, once you come and you stay in,
and I created these things in my mind of reasons why I couldn't.
And then all of a sudden, folks with time
and whatever started relapsing, and it freaked me out.
And I realized what it is is like the more uncomfortable
I am or the more I am not able to kind of show up
in a way that is healthy, it has to do with my fear around
relapse.
Has nothing to do with the person who's relapsing,
has everything to do with me.
And so like I've talked about this before,
there's a Monday night relapse prevention meeting, CMA.
Sometimes I have to take a break
because I need to make sure that I am not judging people
or imposing my stuff onto someone else.
This is their humanity, this is their experience.
It's like it does not mean they're not serious.
It does not, and even if there aren't serious,
it's not for me.
Like if I'm okay, then I'm focused on the shit in my whole hoop, you know?
That's right. Yeah. That's right. And so maybe we can transition the conversation a little bit about like what relapses
Sometimes you know, Bonnie Violet said you can't say that she did and that was years ago, but where is she now?
We miss you Bonnie Violet
I feel like Bonnie Violet. I think Louis sent me up for that and he's gonna make a sound bite of it and it's gonna
(laughing)
- It's coming by ringtone.
- Yeah.
(laughing)
- Where is she now?
So there's some research by a scholar, Melonis,
from 2015 that outlines relapse as happening in stages.
So Melonis says there's an emotional relapse
before there's a mental relapse
and then there's a physical relapse.
- Right.
- So you both are nodding.
I'm curious what.
- Oh no, just agree.
And it's like, the point that you pick up and use
or whatever, it's kind of like it's too late.
It's kind of like you've been sick all along
and you go to ER and all they can do
is make you comfortable.
Bitch, you know, what you pick up is because
the plan was set in motion.
- Yeah, one thing about there's a book
I read in rehab called Staying Sober.
- Okay.
- Old school, but it's saying like your relapse started
way before you picked up.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And that could have, that could have anything right?
Yeah, yeah.
And just to give, just to cite the paper,
it's called Real-Ass Prevention and the Five Rules
of Recovery, Melamis and the second author,
I think, is Biol.
But so going back to this idea, yes, right?
And but we can also see it in behaviors, right?
If I look at my own behavior, I started
to remove myself from community.
I wasn't keeping up with my commitments.
I wasn't taking care of my health, right?
Like I was starting to prioritize other things,
specifically in my case I would prioritize
hooking up or like meeting with guys and stuff like that.
I know what I'm seeing.
I know I'm saying Lewis just gave me a look.
(audience laughing)
I'm in another program.
(audience laughing)
So the relapse does happen ahead of time.
My mom says, my grandmother says,
Oh my God, Belirano, Yanesi Naviso, which means that...
(laughs)
For Latin listeners.
So basically what that means is that harm
doesn't come without warning, right?
And I think it's the same thing for relapse.
Yeah, that's the same thing.
Like, before a relapse happened,
there was a lot of stuff happening beforehand.
Yeah, okay.
So I'm wondering.
- Yeah.
- Yeah.
- Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah, so that's the first half of this episode.
We're gonna, if you wanna hear more about relapse
and the things that you don't hear about relapse,
just listen to our next episode.
We want you there.
We wanna hear you.
We wanna hear from you.
So come back.
- Yeah.
So the Castro-Construclub is a safe
and sober community center for all people
and the refuge for the LGBTQ Recovery Community.
- We provide programs and services
that help change lives by supporting personal growth.
- And our vision is to reduce the suffering of addiction
by connecting people to community opportunity and support.
- You can find more information,
including all the ways to contact us at www.castrocountryclub.org
up slash podcast.
- Come back now.
- Yes, the tune in.
- Y'all come back now.
- New episodes are released every Monday.
- Monday.
- Yeah, definitely Monday.
- Monday.
Okay, we'll see you soon. We love you. Bye.
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(upbeat music)