Navigating Masculinity and Vulnerability in Recovery 🏳️‍🌈 A Queer Recovery Podcast 🎙️

Today's topic is Navigating Masculinity and Vulnerability in Recovery.  

🏳️‍🌈 Have any questions, comment or suggestions? Wanna be a guest co-host?

 🏳️‍🌈 Join Anthony & LouiLou for a new episode every Monday.  We record live from The Castro Country Club in San Francisco.

 🏳️‍🌈 We strive to create a brave space where we engage in topics of recovery, where there are no outside issues.

 🏳️‍🌈 Find us on all podcast channels: At The CCC

🏳️‍🌈 To send us a voice message or ask a question: go to https://www.castrocountryclub.org/podcast

#Queer #Recovery #LGBTQIA2S #Service #selfcare #selflove #Masculinity #Femininity 

Transcript

Welcome, you're at the CCC.
Where there are no outside issues, my name is Anthony, I'm an addict and an alcoholic,
another bozo on the bus, and I care about you.
Yes, and I'm Louis Lue, my pronouns are he and him.
I'm a recovery for crystal meth and alcohol, and I am always in search balance.
Yes.
And I'm Jordan, I'm the third wheel to this relationship forever and always.
You are!
Yes.
And each week we strive to foster a brave stacer, we can engage in conversation, sit around
topics of array and our intention is to hold an inspire better spaces for more people in recovery by tackling issues
Sometimes use to separate
Yes, but before we do that, please like share and comment on this episode like share subscribe tell your friends about us
It sent us messages sometimes. Yeah. Yeah, send us an email
Yeah, they have yeah, yeah, we get these really sweet messages really sweet emails another disclaimer
The Thoughts and opinions expressed on Express.
The Thoughts and opinions on,
(laughs)
Okay, I need people to know that I was having a chicken sandwich
before we started, so my mouth is in like--
- So stuck in his mouth.
- So some of it's not warm.
-He just coughed up chicken.
(laughs)
- And the waffle.
The Thoughts and opinions expressed on at the CCC are ours alone
we do not represent anyone but ourselves,
in other words, we're just a couple of friends
behind a mic to entertain
And of course, everything we talk about
is for general information purposes only.
- Only.
- Only.
So Jordan's with us today.
- I know.
- Hello.
- Jordan's our third one.
- He graced us with this present.
- We are a thruple today.
- I know, exactly.
Take your clothes off.
- Thank you.
- Put them back on.
- I know, exactly.
Jordan's taking his coat off as I was kidding.
- I know, we're like sitting at a round table.
This is pretty cool.
- Yeah, it is.
It's very cool.
- How's everyone?
- I'm good.
It's been a long week.
Yeah, it's been a long week.
What's made it long? Yeah, just the week has been long and this schizophrenic ass weather got it. Yeah
Oh my gosh, okay, I kind of love it the bipolar weather
Okay, can we not use mental health illness or mental illness to characterize the weather?
How would you characterize it? It's very we can say we can say it's erratic
We can say but we're not gonna use
Mental illness
It's a frantic and then he said by polar and I just say crazy as or anything
No, those are serious illnesses mental illnesses. Okay. I will fight you both
Okay, so I enjoyed the the weather needs medication
Seriously, oh my god, you need prayer in a nap
Pairing and nap, Jordan, what were you gonna say?
- I enjoyed the weather, my week was great.
- Yeah.
- I did not enjoy the weather and here's why.
My allergies were so bad.
- Absolutely, that's what I'm saying.
- It's not why you're sniffling so much.
- I am still recovering, yeah, yeah, I am still recovering.
I probably sound good.
when the weather changes, that's a sinus,
like, it's like you can tell the weather by my sinus thing.
- Is there a really cool thing called Clareton, I think.
- Okay, how about you fucking kick rocks?
Exactly.
You pick up on some of our tests.
Yeah, yeah.
Like, volume and shit.
Yeah, hi.
Yeah.
Don't you have like a relationship to blow up?
I'm gonna cut.
Oh, no.
I'm gonna cut your mic.



I'm gonna cut you mic

I'm gonna cut you.




First and last thruple ever



What was I gonna say?
I don't remember
You were saying something about how--
Hows your week, oh you didn't like the week.
- Oh the pollen, yes, so the pollen index
was at moderate in Walnut creek and in San Francisco.
That's pretty nerdy for me to say, huh?
It was pretty nerdy.
But it was really, really bad.
My eyes were watery, and on top of that,
it makes you fatigued because your entire body is responding.
- Absolutely.
- So I was like tired, I couldn't sleep.
Then my cat wanted to put his ass in my face,
and I'm like, we're not doing this right now.
- So do you know, do you know?
- Sorry, I caught myself after I said it.
Well, what I meant is that he's you know, he's very fluffy.
You can't get your cat started on
something that has pulled back.
Oh my god.
Oh, exactly.
I realized what I said after I said that.
Is somebody need a cat?
We can.
No.
You should be careful.
Come on, you know.
I'm quick.
Why do you have pink eyes?
Exactly.
Kiddy pink eyes.
The thing.
I mean, yeah, if you come out, he's got feline AIDS
Oh my god.
[LAUGHTER]
I have regular HIV.
(laughing)
- We're gonna get cut it.
- We're gonna get cut down.
- Well, we're E for explicit.
- They're just not gonna play us in like Baghdad
(laughing)
- Like there was a chance.
- Yeah, you know, on Spotify,
there's certain things that can't get played
in certain countries.
- Oh, okay.
- I'm 100%.
- It's like a...
- So, Jordan, were you gonna say something?
- No, no, I don't.
- Do we wanna talk about the topic?
- I was gonna get there.
- Wow, first day back.
- As Agamah was pushy.
- Yeah, always pushy.
I'm driving you no more, Ms. Daisy.
Okay.
So.
(laughing)
I want folks to know that Jordan
is the pellest person at this table.
- You know what that word means?
- Pale?
- Oh, I heard pellis.
- Sorry.
(laughing)
- I'm looking at a pellis.
- No, palest
- Pale.
- That came out of left field.
- Okay, what are you doing over there?
You're looking through your pictures.
Why do you get ready for what?
- I was waiting for you.
- I was gonna...
(laughing)
Can we just...
(laughing)
- I'm just attacking each other.
- What I love is like...
- This is like a bad episode of The Breakfast Club.
(laughing)
- What is The Breakfast Club?
- I don't know where it's at,
but it's like a talk show.
- It's like a radio talk show.
- It's like a radio talk show.
- Yeah, yeah.
- They've got all this drama on now.
- Got it.
- Okay, so today's topic is navigating masculinity
and vulnerability and recovery.
(bell rings)
(screams)
And just, you know, I feel like we had a conversation
about, you remember the conversation we had about
masculinity and we also had one about femininity.
But I feel like, you know, and we talked about vulnerability,
but I feel like, you know, it's a wonderful topic,
especially it's very apopo with what's going on now.
- What's going on now?
- Life.
-Life is lifing. -I will punch you on air.
[laughter]
-What did you think I was going to say?
I learned how to be especially vague on--
-Oh, yeah. I'm here.
You know, I want our listeners to know that
before we started recording today,
Jordan and Lewis,
engagement and conversation that was very difficult.
And I had unexpected emotions.
He almost hit us.
I didn't hit you.
I was angry.
Well, something, you know, for listeners, I had an experience recently that I'm still
recovering from.
I feel like emotionally, spiritually, psychologically really devastated.
And so it's really, it's really hard for me, I think, to perhaps, I think clearly, right,
which is I think ultimately what Jordan and Lewis were trying to get me to a point as
Lewis said, you're drinking poison.
Is that what you said?
You know that saying, if you haven't heard this, it's like a resentment as like drinking
poison and waiting for the other person to die.
Yeah, but I don't, yeah, we're not going to open this back up.
We're not going to.
We're not.
Because I think I'm, you know, I have to have the experience I'm having and the goal
for me is not to... So, a resentment is a revisiting.
Right, it's a revisiting of something that hurts
or that something that angers you.
And so, my goal is not to revisit.
You know, my goal is to let go of all of that.
If you haven't left the house...
You don't have to...
If you haven't left the house, you don't have to revisit it.
If you're in it, like you haven't left the house, you're in it.
So, you don't have time to revisit.
I it's like every I see what you said. Oh, that's clever. That's really clever actually. Yeah, that's
Thank you
We get along it might seem like I'm stupid. I never said that okay, but you don't have to because I thought he says big old college words
It says you you want a dictionary black man. I never oh my oh
- Oh my, first love, I am a man of color.
- Oh no, exactly, but that don't make it okay.
- No, no.
(laughing)
- Oh my God, you keep turning it around on me.
(laughing)
- You.
- Oh my God.
- You sneaky, sneaky, sick.
- Okay, so I'm sorry, we're gonna get to the topic,
but I- - Anything can do it.
- I would cannot do,
Brandon sent both of us like the transcript.
- The transcript of a,
we were talking about like when the episodes were released.
release yeah and we go through it like I'm all yeah you can get their episodes
Monday Monday and I was like yeah the release Monday the morning or whatever but
sometimes they're released on Tuesday and you'll get it on Monday but
sometimes it really is best
we start laughing it's like I'm on that's that has been so characteristic of
that's right I love this I love I love our vibe and we include Jordan and
that's because sometimes we need somebody to laugh at yeah yeah I thought we
- We include Jordan, 'cause we're part of the pipeline
from prison to work.
(laughing)
- We're secretly doing DEI work.
(laughing)
- But yeah, so vulnerability and masculinity
I've never been to prison for the record.
- It's fine if you have.
- So let's say, for folks who have been incarcerated,
we don't have a story.
- Let's start off, 'cause I think that a definition
or a working definition of masculinity would be good.
- I think that's great.
- Do you have one on your phone?
- No, I'm just looking at the title.
- Well, we've got past that.
Go ahead, go ahead and listen to me.
- I'm listening.
- Masculinity, to me.
- Okay, let's define the first.
- Yeah. - Okay.
- To me, it is a spectrum, right?
I think there's--
- I'm listening?
I'm pulling up a definition.
- There's attitudes and behaviors and demeaners, right?
That are seen as more masculine,
that's quote unquote societal appropriate
to be masculine, right?
And I think within the masculine,
there's a spectrum of being super masculine versus not
as masculine, right, whatever that is.
But to me, it's a spectrum.
It's not like you're either masculine or you're
feminine, right?
That's the expression of the gender of your choosing
is a spectrum.
Yeah, exactly.
It's a good, good, good.
That's cute.
So let's hold on to that.
Luis, do you have something?
I'm not really.
I mean, I was just--
I was just, sorry, I was just speaking, the definition, so I wait, wait, let's hear it.
So the qualities are attributes regarding as characteristics of men or boys.
Men or boys, right?
So masculinity as a spectrum, sure, but I think if we talk about masculinity on a spectrum
really what we're talking about is a gender spectrum that would include femininity.
Yeah.
Right, which I think is what you're saying.
So what I think of when it comes to masculinity is that it's number one culturally informed.
It's culturally informed.
Ideas of masculinity are not necessarily universal.
And because they're culturally informed, they're shaped, interpersonally, socially, right?
So, when I think about masculinity going back to the textbook definition, it's like those
things that are characteristic of what the culture says is, I don't know, characteristic,
I think was the word for boys and men. Right? That makes sense. Yeah. There's different
kind of masculine in a gay space, different masculine in a more heterospase or like I'm
masculine, it looks different in my family versus in my queer family. Yeah, you know, being
gay, the idea of like gayness in general is different wherever you go in the world.
Absolutely. Yeah.
Right. Although there was an interesting study that showed that there were more linguistic
similarities between queer people across regions and there are straight people within the
same region. Oh wow. Okay. Yeah. Um, well, topic for another time.
You probably have everything to do with the so like if they have access to social
Oh, 100% 100% yeah. Um, but yeah, so, so I like what you're bringing up toward in this idea of
like what being queer, what are you doing?
There's a bug.
- Oh, yeah.
(coughing)
- There was a, that there's a,
(laughing)
that there, this idea of like gayness,
queerness being different, like masculinity
looks very different in my family
than it probably looks in your family, right?
White masculinity looks different
from say maybe brown masculinity.
- Oh god, yeah.
- Class, so middle class, masculinity is different from.
- Educated as, I mean it's all,
- Yeah, yeah, because it's like, really important,
it's like this attitude, I have to,
every time I'm challenged, I have to do something about it.
I mean, what I know now on this side of my understanding
is like, sometimes I don't have to do a thing
and I'm okay and I don't need to worry about what you think.
- Right.
- Yeah, I feel like when we come to terms,
and this is masculinity with regards to recovery and everything,
When we come to terms to who we are and we start to accept ourselves and be our true
selves, we slowly but surely decolonize our mind.
We get away from all these other kind of work ideas about what masculinity is.
I think within the gay community, like in a healthy way, like for me, I understand masculinity.
I always thought that I heard somebody say I always thought that it was, you know, masculinity
It was more peacockish, it was more showing,
it was more of that kind of performative-type thing,
and it wasn't what we think.
Obviously, say muscles and all that.
No, it's more than.
- You know, I think the reason why,
especially in gay spaces, I think they're,
do you wanna buy that in my sandwich?
Jordan keeps looking at my sandwich.
- No, he said no eating.
- I know, and I'm like, you can hear me smacking my lips
a little bit.
Oh, you wanna hear something gross?
So some episodes you can hear me going,
yeah, I feel like I need to probably like moisturize
the inside of my mouth more or something.
So. (laughs)
- Okay.
- Wow.
- We're covering all sorts of topics.
- Let's go back to masculinity.
- Thank you.
- I think the reason masculinity to me,
a conversation about masculinity to me is analogous
to a conversation about resources,
anything that has to do with power,
because masculinity has cultural capital,
especially among gay men.
- Oh, absolutely.
- Oh yeah.
- Which is an extension of misogyny and sexism.
- Oh God, it's like, wow.
- Right.
- No, totally.
- Yeah, yeah.
- No, but it's true.
And I sigh because it's true.
It's like, I'm all.
- Yeah.
- I mean, this is our problem.
I think this is really our problem.
It's like, the fact that it has all this capital
and we have a knucklehead and, oh,
so I'm not even gonna go there.
- But in a recovery space, right?
I think it's interesting when I go into a meeting
that's not titled Queer Gay, right?
- And you make it really gay, 'cause I walk in.
- But like.
- You walked in and your butthole's whistling?
(laughing)
What's that?
(laughing)
Stop talking about your cat.
(laughing)
Anyways, go ahead.
- You walk in, right?
And there is a size up of other, for me,
like sizing up of other guys in the room, right?
- For you? - For me.
- Got it?
- And I think that there also is,
it's a, recovery is a unique space
because it's the one opportunity where I think
it's for so many years, so many decades,
it's been okay to be emotional in this space
in front of other men.
I mean, recovery is most, unfortunately, right?
A lot of rooms are mostly men.
And so to have that space to be vulnerable,
when society is saying, be a man, don't.
- Oh, you're talking about your experience
as someone who was earlier in recovery too,
because I think that it will change.
It will-- - Interesting.
- It definitely will.
I mean, we size, but it'll change why you do it.
I mean, I feel like I don't really care.
(laughing)
I feel like nowadays it's like I go into those spaces
to just be, to do things how I wanna do 'em.
- The other day, listeners, I'm sorry, I'm eating.
- Are you sorry?
- I don't think you said it.
- I'm sorry, really?
What I am sorry for is the sound of my lips,
I think.
- Are you sorry?
- I'm not sorry for eating.
- Okay, that's it.
Okay, listen, listen, listen.
Did I tell you this almost?
- No, but you're gonna tell me.
- I am.
- I'm gonna tell you.
- No, tell me.
- Okay, so I was sharing at a meeting in Menlo Park.
- Okay, you did just that.
- I said, okay, okay, what are we doing?
What's happening there?
- You were telling me.
- Okay, so I was on my way to Menlo Park.
And I was, so I was taking the Cal train.
And as I was walking toward the Cal train,
there was this other guy coming this way.
And he looks at me and he says,
"Faggot get the fuck away from me."
- What?
- No.
- And I was like, "What the fuck?"
And I felt like I was transported back in time.
I was like, "Oh my God, I felt like a little kid."
I was like, he also looked like he wasn't completely there.
It was like really aggressive where I was like,
"Oh, this person is gonna try to hurt me."
- Yeah, exactly.
- So I like walked around to the other side of the building
and I'm like, what am I supposed to do right now?
I have to get on this train.
I was recovering from food poisoning from the night before.
There was just not the look.
So finally I get to the gate and he's standing by the gate.
And so I called the the Caltraine police
because I was like, I'm literally afraid right now.
this guy's huge looks fucking crazy.
And he brought up a bunch of things for me.
- Come on, man.
- Yeah, I felt like, you know, despite,
I'm 40 years old now and I have a recovery under my belt
and I'm a learned person.
And there was a part of me that was like,
I felt like emasculated.
Like, you know what it is?
- That's exactly what it is.
- Yeah, I felt like, oh my god,
if my dad was here, my dad would have punched him
in the mouth or blah, blah.
And I just, I went, it was just like this really fucked up experience.
Then I went, I was like, maybe I need to buy a gun.
Maybe I need to, like I started to go down this, this kind of, and you know, you know,
it's interesting. This is the misconception has always been that the, the other guy
and his show of bravado and whatever was what masculinity was.
But in fact, it's the whole spectrum like you're saying.
Yeah. It's how you were showing up.
Like, you know, not feeling like you need to engage this person
because it's not always the right move to physically try to fight
someone or whatever.
Like masculinity now, the adult version of it is to call the cops.
Yeah.
So as I'm not going to jail for you.
You know what?
You, so it's interesting when we talk about, because the other thing
we probably should acknowledge here is that masculinity,
like femininity are performative.
- Oh, absolutely.
- These are things that we can perform.
- Uh-huh.
- Right.
Although some people might disagree.
But they are, anyway.
So it's interesting because there are characteristics
of masculinity.
They're like the things that are masculine
that I'm attracted to are not the things
that I think most men try to embody.
- Like what?
So like, things that I'm attracted to is like,
I like big butts and I cannot lie.
(laughing)
They're not wrong.
I know.
You know what I'm saying?
But, and also I realize that this is,
it's also kind of problematic to attribute this
to masculinity.
So we're, so I just wanna acknowledge that.
But, but we can also talk about masculinity as energetic,
which can be, and can be embodied in anybody.
And also not being limited to,
- Yeah.
- Because, right, because--
- That idea is out there.
- Right, so like characteristics that I really like,
I love, I am very attracted to men who are discerning.
So like thoughtful discerning intentional--
- Yeah, I can see where that would be problematic.
- Problematic.
- Attaching that dance.
- Yeah, you're right, right, right.
But here's the thing is that I'm also attracted to women,
not sexually, but I'm attracted to women who also embody
those characteristics. - Absolutely.
- Yeah, so like assertiveness, I think is also very attractive.
Like a level-headedness is also very attractive to me,
which generally have been attributed to masculinity.
- But we know that couldn't be far from the truth.
- Right, right, which is right.
So that's what I'm seeing is that for,
they're like, I think for a lot,
they're for some gay men, perhaps,
Maybe there's this like, you know what's really sad to me?
Whenever you're around like a gay, man,
who you know is like working so hard to like,
perform. - Oh god yeah.
- 'Cause you can feel it.
- It's even in how they, like for my friends who are like that,
I'm all, hey, hey, take that base out of your voice.
What are you doing?
It's like I'm all yours.
Where are you kidding?
And it's like, you open your mouth and about 25 pairs
of pumps fall out.
And here's the thing, what's interesting for me,
for what's interesting about that is that we,
but like as queer people, gay people,
were the folks who say like, fuck gender,
like you can play around with gender,
you can do whatever the fuck you want with gender.
- You mean some of us too?
- Some people don't.
- Some of us some people don't.
- I mean like, no, I'm sorry,
like on TikTok, you don't catch it.
There are a lot of people like,
Tell me.
- The things that I hate is like,
You know, you have that gay person said,
well, I'm not that kind of gay,
I don't, I don't watch Rapal's Drag Race
and I don't do this.
I'm a normal person and whatever.
It's like, come on, you know what?
What do you, you pick me?
That's what you are, you are pick me.
It's like, I'm up.
You are, you are, it's almost like people of color
who are apologetic for microaggressions that come from,
like, you know, it's like, I'm all,
- Oh no, no, no.
- Oh I know.
- You know what I'm saying?
You know what I'm saying?
I'm like, this is bullshit
Uh, you don't need to, you need to stop taking care
of people that don't need to be taking care of, you know.
- Most of the thing too, I think marginalized communities
choose to marginalize their own marginalized community.
I think because that's social norm is to categorize folks, right?
And so to say, "Oh, you're a femme gay, I'm a masculine gay,"
like to delineate or to,
- To categorize it.
- You know, and it's such a fucking losing battle
because, in some spaces,
I'm the nellyest sissyest person in the world
to some people.
Right, like if I go back to the projects,
like if I'm not, I don't behave that way.
- Yeah, exactly.
- And so because I use full sentences,
- Yeah, how dare you.
- Do you know what I mean?
- I know exactly what you said it is.
- Where it's like, it's immediately translated
as like feminine, gay, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
Or in other spaces,
like it reads as neutral
because in those spaces, like if say they're like
academic spaces or just things like that.
- Yeah.
- So you can't fucking win, right?
Like there's no,
but there, I think the part that fucks me up though
is that there is capital there.
- Yeah, exactly.
- And so a lot of us do the code switching because--
- Well, because we do the code switching,
But it's because we all collectively have this misguided idea of what masculine and feminine
is and we bought into that.
And again, going back to I love Miss Bale, decolonizing our mind, getting away from that,
realizing that what we were told was we were sold a bunch of whiff knuckles.
We're like, "Widden Nichols, my father was there."
"Widden Nichols?"
"Widden Nichols."
"Yeah, you know where I think this shows up?"
"Where?"
"In Bottom Shame."
- Oh yeah, bottom shaming, bottom shaming.
- But I also think too, using masculinity
and code switching that is a survival technique
for a lot of people.
- Oh, 100%.
- Yeah, yeah, 100% work.
- To be in a workplace and it's not always appropriate
to be your natural feminine self, right?
- Oh, and you know what?
- Yeah, I'm not going to work vogueing.
- I don't know, but the irony of it is,
is like, we try so hard, at least we try so hard
to get one way or whatever, and most of the time it doesn't work.
Right?
People are already clocked at it.
They're already clocked at it, it's like, "I'm gonna go out."
You know how long it's taken me to just be my fucking self?
Do you know what I mean?
I can remember when I was closeted
and literally micro-managing and monitoring everything
from the tone of my voice to how I was using my hands,
to just all this work, or then when I was hooking up
with people, working really hard,
It was just so exhausting.
- Well, I think the exhausting part for me
and that was becoming aware that I was doing it.
- Yeah.
- Because before it was just so second nature,
I was doing it like I was actively doing it
and I didn't think much of it,
'cause maybe I didn't think much of myself.
And then when I started to get to that place where I'm all,
okay, you know what?
'Cause the goal is always,
and I'm still working at it to be the same Louis everywhere.
- Yeah.
And it's like, to be an integrated human being.
- Exactly, and it doesn't always happen.
And I'm almost certain I told the story once before.
I went to this, I was in my active addiction
where I went to the spiritual retreat down
in Los Alta's Hales at a Jesuit Center.
- Okay.
- And I was with a bunch of men.
And I was like, I did, I made a decision not to disclose
that I was gay.
- Okay.
So we were having these experiences and I was watching people like really kind of get
open and honest and vulnerable and what have you and so we go to lunch and I had a aha
experience.
I'm all and I realized it's like, you know, I'm keeping this part from me and I'm missing
an opportunity to have the same kind of experience.
So dramatically I came in afterwards and we started meeting again and I'm all.
This is my story and I'm gay.
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And nobody cared.
And that's not all it's a case.
That was a perfect scenario because I was worried
that it would really affect how I--
Yeah.
--how community.
But I think also we're pretty fortunate because we are in it.
Like, normally it's like the straight people that
pop into our neighborhood.
They're the minority in this.
And so we don't have to kind of play their game
because I get to choose where I go.
Yeah.
Like I don't have to hang out in Norpeach
or any of the areas.
And I don't go to close where it's--
Yeah.
Yeah.
In the Velvet Rage, Ellen Downs
talks about-- obviously Shame,
but he also kind of lands on authenticity.
And I think that I feel like with respect to gender and gender performance,
there seems to be a movement where people are moving closer to like,
what, like, fuck the gender, like, who am I?
Like, what, what, what is originating for me and how am I showing up?
Right? And the introduction, for example, of the idea of the sigma,
the, you know, the idea of the sigma, for folks listening, if you aren't familiar.
So, you know, for a really long time,
you would hear things about like the alpha male,
the alpha male, right, and the alpha male.
And so the sigma is a person who stands independent of that,
but is equally quote unquote powerful,
but their power is derived from their authenticity
and, you know, they're showing up
and ways that feel right for them.
- We like that.
- Yeah, yeah.
And so, I think for me with respect to masculinity
is like, especially in recovery spaces,
I've had to learn how to lighten the fuck up
and not do all the second guessing, right?
Like, it's taken me a really long time
to cry in meetings.
It's taken me a really long time
to admit when I need help.
And these are all things that I didn't do
because I was taught, you know, guys don't do that.
I can remember when I was a kid
and I was told like, boys don't cry.
Yeah.
I mean, what I'm hearing from both of you is
that I need to remind myself what the goal is
of the space I'm in, right?
Especially in sober spaces,
my goal is to be sober, right?
My qualifying reason for being here
is 'cause I don't wanna drink or use today.
And everything else falls second to that, right?
And I think so when I'm caught up in my head of like,
oh, how am I sitting, where am I standing, right?
Whatever.
- And what's the irony,
most of the time people don't give a shit.
- Right, and if they do, whatever.
- And I like to say, and I like to tell my sponsors
and other people, you know what?
Do you think people judge me?
Okay, yeah, they are, so what?
So what?
It's like, I'm all, if we can just be like,
okay, it's happening, I need to get over it.
I need to work on, yeah.
- I hear you guys.
That's why I always say.
- Yeah.
(laughing)
- Yeah.
And all of this has, I mean, this conversation
is relevant to folks who are actually like,
trying to move out of, you know, trying to not be bound by--
- Gender.
- All of those things, because I mean,
there, if you're in, and this is,
if you're in a region or area where this is the thing,
I can imagine it might be really tough,
if you are changing and growing like we change and grow,
and you're around people who aren't changing and growing
or who don't feel, or maybe changing and growing at it,
at, at, at, at, not at it, you know, the same kind of pace.
because that means change is inevitable.
- I'll also do, I think, for folks in our community
right here that go to a different meeting,
see what it is like in other spaces.
And I know I've learned something by being
in a different meeting that's not
with the same folks I'm here,
not with people who are like minded,
right, you're gonna get different.
- I don't do this, but there's something to be said about
like that experience I had going into a straight meeting
and realizing 'cause it's like,
It opens your eyes to, oh, maybe I'm not healing in the way
that I thought I was.
-work yeah
- Maybe what's happening is I am in such a safe place
that I can be myself.
And the challenge is, can I show up this authentically
in any space?
- Yeah.
- And I've seen it where I've shared at other meetings
outside and this is something that happens as a black man.
is a black man who I had always been accused growing up.
It's like, oh, you're trying to stand white
in this and that or whatever and all that good.
And so I found myself being terrified of not my family,
but being around people that I didn't know
because that was the place where I was constantly
like on guard.
Like sometimes I would just,
the best thing to do is to stay quiet
because then they won't notice me.
They won't notice me and if they don't notice me,
then it'll pick on me.
And like what I'm realizing now is like,
I have been able to kind of more actively
be my authentic self.
And mainly because I don't,
I don't know, I have confidence in a different way.
And I think it has everything to do
with being like an old, you know?
And I don't care, I don't care the same way.
I'm not driven by the same kind of motive,
I don't have the same motivators.
- Yeah, yeah.
Thank you for bringing that up
'cause I was thinking about gosh, like, oh my God, Lewis.
So the kind of constantly adjusting
based on the situation you're in
and letting that kind of like fall away, right?
In order to like just be able to breathe.
I think for that, for me,
So that's come from just embracing that I'm a fucking awkward person sometimes.
You know that sometimes I'm going to say, "So just kind of embracing what feels clumsy."
Right?
Yeah, just embracing what feels clumsy.
And I love this about recovery because when you start doing step work, for example,
especially when you're doing steps four and five and six, which for folks listening
you take a fearless moral inventory of yourself,
you're looking at kind of the patterns in your behavior
that have been served you,
and then you kind of turn those things over
so that you can live a different life.
So in doing that,
I found that there's like this kind of loosening up
that happens where I, for example, may not be
so preoccupied with like how do I sound to people?
Right?
And yeah.
The podcast has been very helpful for that too because there was a time where I just did not like hearing my voice
Played back because I'm oh my god. I sound really gay
Mm-hmm. I sound really this around. I don't like my voice or whatever. I'm like the voice and now it's like
You know whatever
I think actually the truth of it is is I really like my voice
It's like it's very soothing it makes people feel bit feel comfortable. It's like I'm on I see why we see you are there
It's like it's what Jordan
- Yeah, I'm getting over it.
- What's Jordan over there?
- Jordan's got that look.
It's like, so I like to fuck with him.
- Jordan's like, I have nothing in a sec.
- No, I was gonna say your voices are for you.
- Do you hear your voice?
It's not for you to hear as far as people here.
- Yeah, that's true.
I have, I have, what?
- No, it's like, honestly, I have some days,
some days because I live by myself where I don't talk
I don't talk for like hours and hours.
I wake up and I'm just like,
- 'Cause you're mad at yourself?
- No, I don't talk.
- No, I don't talk.
There's no need.
Yeah, yeah, I mean who are you gonna talk to? I'm having a conversation ahead. It's like I'm all I knew my voice sounds like there
Mm-hmm. We're gonna talk to sometimes I talk to myself
So it's like I'm all I'm using up words, you know, I don't need to
That's really nice running out of words running out of words. I use up on my words. I can't talk to them
Yeah, let's start telling
So go ahead we should start tell when you don't want to we don't fuck when it's someone is like I'm all you know
- I used up on my words, can't talk to you.
- Yeah, well, I was thinking about
so part of like the vulnerability and masculinity.
So I was thinking about how for a lot of people
who get sober, sex becomes difficult for them, right?
Either because they used substances to have sex
or be intimate or whatever.
And for example, I had a newcomer say to me, Anthony,
How should I behave if I want to attract bottoms?
And I said, you behave, however, the fuck you want to behave.
Like there's nothing, I was like, why don't you just be yourself?
Or just, if your business is San Francisco,
just stand anywhere, they will come to you.
It's like, like, there's so many.
Right.
And whatever, but the point is--
- But attract bottoms.
- No, but the point is--
- He's gonna say, thanks a lot, Anthony, for cheering us on.
- Yeah, yeah.
(laughing)
And the other part of that too is like,
oh well, does a person have to behave differently
in order to attract tops, right?
Or whatever, right?
And I think that when I bring all of this shit up to say--
- There's a Fem top movement on TikTok.
Some guys are like, we need to normalize being Fem tops
or whatever and all that good stuff.
- Can I tell you?
I don't bottom very often.
when I was in Mississippi, I bought 'em
for this FEM top, 'cause I was like,
I need to try this at least once in my life,
and it was amazing.
(laughing)
But jokes aside, I share that
because I was like, I like, blue through,
like my own hang up.
- Yeah, exactly. - One like,
I was trying to open up to bottoming
'cause I had some shame around bottoming,
so I would only top.
And then I didn't want, if I was gonna bottom,
I didn't want to bottom for a guy that was Fem,
and so I was like, fuck it, like,
what would it look like to like get out of this?
And what was wild about it was like,
I ended up having this experience
that I couldn't have prepared for, and I was sober.
- Did you fall in love and change your,
you changed your brother?
- No, I ended up, no, but when I was living in Mississippi,
no, remember I had like a boyfriend when I was out there?
So no, but this was a different guy.
But he wasn't even a boyfriend.
He was just like my Mississippi.
- He was your Mississippi, goddamn.
- My Mississippi.
(laughing)
Yeah, a beautiful guy.
- I love that, I love it.
- The point is recovery, sex and all the, right?
So what's cool about being sober and talking about
things like masculinity and all the different ways
that it shows up and they can be kind of like a barrier
to connection is that as a sober person,
I get to be present for the feelings
that I'm having and the experiences that I'm having.
And I can be discerning about them.
I can kind of pick them apart.
I can bring them to my friends and have them questioned.
- Exactly.
- Right.
And that to me is like, that's the shit
that makes life so juicy.
- Yeah, exactly, exactly.
- Yeah.
Yeah, were you gonna say Jordan?
- Yeah.
- I mean, looking at our title again.
But vulnerability in recovery, right?
Which I think--
- Yeah, so I'm talking about.
- Yeah, yeah.
I guess being newer in recovery, being vulnerable,
let alone dealing with my own masculinity BS,
but like just trying to be vulnerable and sharing.
I don't do it.
I do it very rarely.
I think I've--
- Oh, same word about that.
- I think I've shared in a group setting like five times.
- Say, say why?
- Part of it is, I feel like I need to say something
productive or something of value.
profound, yeah.
- Like I don't wanna be like,
here's my woe of the day.
That's what a therapist is for in my opinion, right?
And I guess, yeah, I don't know,
like how does I just come with time?
Does that just come with practice?
Do I just like say what,
like I don't know, is that it or do it?
My sponsor said like the other way to do that
instead of sharing a big group is to find somebody
in the rooms with you and pull them aside
and get coffee and be vulnerable with that one on one.
- Yeah, yeah.
- But is there a right way to do it?
Is there a right or wrong way to do it?
I think that my sponsor always says
everybody has three minutes.
Whatever you decide to share in that three minutes.
That's it.
Beyond that three minutes, that's when I say,
you know what, if you can't say it all in three minutes,
then you need to talk to your sponsor
grab somebody after.
But yeah, it's like the way that I share,
sometimes I share.
In the beginning, I would found myself I was sharing
'cause I wanted to make people laugh or whatever.
And then I had a friend who moved to LA or whatever.
And then I saw how they were behaving in them all.
Is that how in behaving all step-in-fetched type of situation?
- What step-in-fetched?
- That's a black people who picked me.
- What they're called step-in-fetch?
- Step-in-fetched was a character, like a character
who was a racialized character.
- Oh, like an Uncle Tom.
- Yeah, exactly.
And I jokingly said that, but really, you know,
we were all kind of struggling with trying to be vulnerable,
trying to be ourselves, all the things
that we're talking about.
And so I share, sometimes it's like,
I used to share a lot.
And I'll share, I try to keep my hands,
I try not to share, especially if it's not a good topic.
Or if it's a topic that I just don't feel like
I have anything else to add to,
then I won't say anything.
But if I'm listening and I hear, you know,
because say if you like to me,
You should bring something to, bring something, don't just try to take from, or whatever.
But I don't think there's any right or wrong way to share.
Sometimes all you do is say, "My response, I have heard people say, my response is shit
that I'm raising my hand just so that can be a part of my recovery."
And also, I like to be succinct.
I think that what if you can say what you need to say without, "There's rambling because
I sometimes are here."
And again, I have to work on that because they get to do that.
That's their three minutes, as long as it's not three minutes and a second.
And really, again, I think it has everything to do, like what's going on here?
I don't know what that person is experiencing.
Maybe that's their beginning of vulnerability.
So it's like, if you just need to share whatever, even at the war with me, because you don't
know who is going to benefit from it.
You absolutely don't.
We don't get to decide.
That's like when you're sharing your story from, you don't know, so just do it.
Yeah, you never know who needs to hear what you're, and it's not just what you have to
say.
It's also you showing up to the meeting, how you say it, how you say it, how you say it,
how you only reach the person, people, the words, the poster reach.
That's why we have all of these different versions of sponsorship.
You know, like what works for some people, like I didn't need a helicopter sponsor.
I didn't need Alan, I didn't need a sponsor that was going to be all in my stuff.
I need somebody who's going to be tough, but you also need people who are going to be gentle.
You know, so it's like there's so many different ways to show up.
Yeah, there are so many different ways to show up.
And I think that this is going back, this is more than vulnerability.
I feel like hold on.
I feel like we should run it out and then divide it into two shows.
Yeah.
Let's just run it.
You're hearing it here folks.
We're deciding on how we're going to splice this.
This is going to be a two part episode because we're just going to take it to the 15.
Is that okay with you guys?
Okay cool.
Because there's just so much to say.
So, so, so, oh my god, I'm also gonna say, okay, sharing in a group, oh my god, come back,
come back, come back. Oh, sharing in a group. You, you sharing in a group. Okay, hold on.
I got so excited about all the other things. Okay, sharing in a group, you, okay, I'll talk
to myself. So, it's taken me a really long time to get comfortable with sharing, right?
Because sharing, you can have like share shame,
so you like share something
and immediately start to feel shame.
Regardless of like what you're saying, share shame.
And when you get in, for me,
you're getting really into step three,
so you turn your will in your life
over to a power greater than yourself.
Whenever I'm in that place,
whenever I get into a place where like,
I can't control anything,
there's something far greater than me
kind of orchestrating everything or however you want to kind of imagine that.
Then it doesn't matter what I share.
It doesn't matter what I share.
It doesn't matter what I do.
Like if my goal is to be in God's will, to do God's will,
then that's what my focus is on.
And so it doesn't matter if my share makes sense.
It doesn't matter if someone isn't responsive to something I say
or if they're judgmental, right?
It doesn't matter because there's something far greater happening.
And when I'm open to that, I connect more.
I have different experiences that make life feel so full, but it does take this, I don't
want to say a leap of faith because that's actually borrowed from philosophical texts.
- Yeah, you have to, there's just something,
I know you both know what I'm talking about.
There's this thing that you get to taste and have access to
and you like, yeah.
- Like you were sharing the story about when you went
to a bath house and you were naked, right?
Do you remember this?
- Yeah.
- It's just like that.
And you were talking about being on the other side of that.
And it was like it.
- Yeah, no, absolutely.
- Absolutely.
- Jordan, yeah.
I wish I can get to that point in any kind of meeting,
I think I get, I mean, able to be at that headspace
when it's one of those meetings where you're forced to share.
Like something like Godbox where you get your name pulled
or like I was at a meeting and they did popsicles,
sticks and everybody's sharing what it's--
- Oh, that's so cool.
- Yeah.
- You know, it's like when I'm forced,
it's not the way I would be like when I'm told
that hey, you're gonna share regardless.
And on the start like that,
then I am better able to be authentically myself,
whereas like if I'm sitting in me,
like, what am I gonna say, what am I gonna say?
And I'm like, running over like,
how am I gonna say what am I gonna say?
I think I just, then I psyched myself out.
Like, I'm just not gonna share.
- Yeah.
It's just another thing to let go.
And you know now that we're,
I'm thinking about masculinity and recovery again.
Nasculinity, I think, a person can be a prison
imprisoned by the ideas of masculinity.
- Absolutely.
you know, like you can suffocate yourself.
I think the other thing I want to acknowledge here too is that, you know, we kind of like
jumped into this and it's, I think it's so much more nuanced, right?
I think part of that, I think I'm having a little bit of sheer shame because I was like,
you know, there's so much nuance here that we need to be careful about, kind of like
marginalizing groups, you know, like specifically I'm thinking about the things that I attribute
to masculinity. And you know, at the same time, I'm also thinking about like a lot of the
things that we talked about in our like an old episode where we talked about like divine
masculinity and all of those kind of things.
I don't know. It's like I like the idea that we're having the conversation and you know,
I understand hope, share a shame thing. But like there's something so freeing the more
that I do it and the more that I realize that whatever,
you know, people are gonna feel what they're gonna feel.
I mean, it's people are gonna feel what they're gonna feel.
They're gonna see it, they're gonna receive it,
and usually it's more of me I'm concerned about what people think
than what they actually think.
We also don't know, oh yes, we also don't know like,
what, going back to what Joining was saying,
we also don't know what people are responding to.
- Absolutely.
- Right, we don't know,
I feel like I'm in this really hippie-dippy high space right now.
Because I'm like, guys, you need to get into it.
You know what I love?
You know what I love?
I feel so stoked.
I think what really helps us practice.
It really helps us to practice.
We have the country club and we have moments where we're sitting around and we're having
conversation.
I love that when you're surrounding yourself with people who kind of are moving in the
same direction, whatever pays their movement in, and who aren't afraid to have conversations
about recovery, about vulnerability, about things of that nature, it is such a gift, and
it's like the more times that we do it.
And if that you need to start with a smaller group, that's one thing.
I think that everything that we do, that we do in communicating and connection or whatever,
is helping us to get better in all of those areas.
And time, time is the, in this case, time in an active participation in this is, is, is, is how, how you get better and you will be.
Yeah.
Um, are we wrapping up?
Yeah, I think, I think we are wrapping up. Um, do you have any final thoughts, Jordan?
Final thoughts. Um, I think that, um, we need to normalize vulnerability and normal everyday conversation.
I think that it's okay to have your vulnerable and I think it also it also takes time for me to
Be sympathetic to somebody who is vulnerable. Yeah, all the time. I mean, that's the hard
But we normalize discernment right because it's like I think that like I always say it's like I think that there are some people
that I do need to have my guard up a little yeah, where I do not
Where vulnerability in this sense or or giving them
More of me might not be
You know what I'm getting at yeah trying to find a safe. Yeah, yeah
Because it's like I and it's not me running from my willingness to open up. It's me knowing
Yeah, maybe this person's not ready to receive it
And if they're not ready to receive it then it's my responsibility and make sure that I hold on to it till
So it's such a time when they might be able to yeah, which in managing people your expectations and other people's expectations
Absolutely because you love to talk about managing expectations
Tell me tell me why and we didn't wrap this up yet
Yeah, tell me why and then we can wrap this up
I think well it's basically how we similarly how we define masculine right if we don't have we don't have the same
base level of knowledge or the same an idea of what the purpose is
Then we could be going in 20 different directions and never get anywhere. Yeah, right?
So if I'm if you're able to manage my expectations and I'm able to manage yours
Then at least we know where we're at and maybe we can find something productive or some common ground or whatever that may be
But if I don't know what you're thinking I don't know where you're at. I can't help or
Whatever you know
Yeah, I think I think it makes sense
There's this I think it's called law
Impanagement it was written by
Michafuco
Meza will go
Where he talks about I'm like exhausted with myself ready
Queer he was a he was a queer queer for folks listening
Michafuco like Todd Epperc Lee because French he was like the original academic leather daddy
that he was really into BDSM and stuff like that. He was really, really red. He was doing
all of that in spaces during a time where it was just unheard of for someone of his
status. But he talked about how laws, for example, are designed, we attempt to design laws
based on science. We try to use the scientific method in law. That's why if this happens,
happens, right? But what he argues is that law doesn't function like science because science
is malleable and like things are constantly changing in science or law doesn't do that.
So when you say for example that we should manage expectations, to me like I always wonder
like well but expectations change and what does it mean to manage expectation, expectation
expectations and who gets to determine how those things are managed.
Right.
So I'm curious if you have any answer to that.
I think because things are changing, I need to re-manage expectations all the time, right?
Because tomorrow's a new day, yesterday was a different day.
Right?
You're coming as a different person, and we're having coffee with our employees.
Right?
So those need to change all the time.
Right?
And if I don't know where you're at, then I don't know where the change happens.
Yeah.
Right?
I think how you manage those things, I think, is it
One-on-one individual.
Yeah, what, but you know in recovery spaces, I've heard like expectations be for
resentments. Is that the first?
Yeah.
Oh, I don't know. Maybe that maybe that's a topic for another time.
I feel like we are, I don't know if we're like loopy or all over the place or for sure
this is my.
Definitely.
We're like milking too much.
It's like it's become too much.
Well, let's wrap it up.
Well, yeah, let's, well, we're gonna find our script or it and so sing a little song while
We look for our script sing a little song. Can you sing do you have any hidden talents?
Any hidden talents none that I want to go away right now. Oh
Silly goose the Castro country club is a safe and sober community center for all people in the
Refuture the LGBTQ Recovery community. We provide programs and services that help change lives by supporting personal growth
Our vision is to reduce the suffering of addiction by connecting people to community opportunity and support
You can find more information including all the ways to contact us at www.castralcountryclub.org
Upslash podcast. Yes and catch new episodes every Monday
Usually before noon
Sometimes on Tuesday sometimes on Tuesday
And also listen
Messages if you you have like topic ideas if you mean a lot of people have
- If you're in San Francisco, if you come to the country,
I wanted to mention this, they're starting a group
for the AIDS Walk.
You can stop by the cafe and find out and participate.
If you wanna join the AIDS Walk team.
- The Castro Country Club always has interesting stuff
going on. - Absolutely.
- Always has interesting stuff.
- At the low light.
- Check out the website, check out the podcast,
but also just check out the websites,
you what's going on, ways that you can support
the recovery community. It's not restricted to 12 step. There are a bunch of different things
that you can get involved in.
Exactly.
Alright, let's fucking land this bitch.
(upbeat music)
(upbeat music)
we're continuing.