Friendships in Recovery, The Love That Saves Us 🏳️‍🌈 A Queer Recovery Podcast 🎙️

Today we talk about Friendships in Recovery, The Love that Saves Us.  👨🏾‍🤝‍👨🏽 ❤️ 

🏳️‍🌈 Have any questions, comment or suggestions? Wanna be a guest co-host?

 🏳️‍🌈 Join Anthony & LouiLou for a new episode every Monday.  We record live from The Castro Country Club in San Francisco.

 🏳️‍🌈 We strive to create a brave space where we engage in topics of recovery, where there are no outside issues.

 🏳️‍🌈 Find us on all podcast channels: At The CCC

🏳️‍🌈 To send us a voice message or ask a question: go to https://www.castrocountryclub.org/podcast

#Queer #Recovery #LGBTQIA2S #Service #selfcare #selflove

Transcript

Welcome, you are at the CCC.
Where there are no outside issues, my name is Anthony, I'm an Atikin and an alcoholic,
another pose on the bus, and I care about it.
Yes, and I'm Louis Lou, my pronouns are he and him.
I'm recovering for crystal meth and alcohol, and I am always in search of balance.
And each week we strive to foster a brave space where we can engage in conversations,
centered around topics of recovery.
And our intention is to hold an inspire better spaces for more people in recovery by tackling
issues sometimes use to separate us.
But before we do that, please like, share, comment, and rate this episode.
Rate it if, again, you're only going to give us five stars.
Comment if you have nice things to say.
If you have some constructive feedback, send us a message.
Yeah, send us a message because it's like one of the features of all a lot of the new
ones.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Click on it.
It makes it really easy.
Yeah, we love when we got emails.
We love when we use CS on the street.
Yeah, it's the coolest thing.
We love our voice.
- Hey.
- Hey.
So,
- Hey Lewis.
- Disclaimer.
- The disclaimer, and now that
(laughing)
and now that disclaimer is the thoughts and opinions
expressed on that, that CCCR is the one
we do not represent anyone, but ourselves in other words,
we're just a couple of friends behind
in my queue to entertain you.
And of course, everything we talk about
is for general information purposes only.
- Hey Lewis.
- Hi.
- Hi, how are you?
I'm pretty good.
- I'm good, good.
- And just it was nice to talk to you
before we started recording this.
- I know, I know.
I always enjoy talking to you guys.
You know what? I feel like what do you feel like?
I feel like for me it's like the people in my life like like I want I want to lift them
and and pour into their life and when they do the same it's like I I feel like
the people that I constantly like gravitate back towards to their
ones who like even if they're not doing it deliberately they're challenging me
they're encouraging me through what they do you know and I feel like I get to
be become a better version of myself because of my relationship with them I
love that. Yeah, it's a good thing. Love to hear that. Yeah, it's a nice segue into.
It's a nice segue into today's topic. But before we jump into today's topic, I'm good.
I'm good. I'm feeling grounded. Today is a day where, you know, I'm reminded that because
I'm sober, I get to have all of my feelings. Oh, God, yes. And that that makes life rich.
That's the interesting thing about feelings.
Like, you know, I think that this is what makes women in some way stronger because of their
ability to kind of connect with their feelings and how as men we were kind of taught to
suppress them.
Okay, I'm glad you said that second part because I was like, I don't know if we should
be saying universal things like that.
But I do think that if we think about at least in the United States, there is a way that
when women. Sure when women are being raised. There's more permission there for a young girl, for example, to be expected to be. Yeah, it's going to, it's expected right and where young boys are kind of conditioned and boys don't cry. Yeah. I mean, I certainly got that message growing up. My mom said boys don't cry. And so at some point I stopped crying. For the long when I was young, I would have.
hug and kiss my father and my uncle's in everything
and as you get older, it's like, what?
Nope, nope, we don't touch.
- Yeah, well, for me, I like that,
for me culturally, that still happens.
We're still affectionate to each other.
- I hug and kiss my daddy.
- Oh my God.
- I'm kidding.
- I'm kidding.
- They do.
- Don't have a daddy.
Just kidding, don't have a daddy.
- Don't have a daddy and I don't have kids.
- Not my story.
- So today's topic is French's and Recovery.
love that saves us. And you said you love that second part of it. I do. It makes me
more well. Okay, so I feel like, you know, especially when we first come into the rooms,
like some of us, some of us are going out and myself included. I thought that I had to be
already at a certain place with with my recovery and my understanding of spirituality, everything.
Like when you come into the rooms, I was messy.
I was not the person that I am today.
I'm still a little messy, but whatever.
It's a controlled mess.
But I heard, find your tribe, find your group,
find people who get you, who release you to be,
just who you are.
And I was able to, you know, when you find those people,
who number one, who understand that I may not be perfect
right now, I may not be where I want to be,
but I'm working on it and so I'm going to love you and be patient with you and give you an opportunity to get to a place.
You know, I'm not going to throw you away just because you make mistakes.
Like I always include in my gratitude list that idea of forgiveness.
Forgiveness of myself and for others for not being who I want you to be or I expect you to be.
And when you have people like that who just love you, who kind of,
and not in a dormati kind of way where they just put it with anything that you give,
give, but they pull you aside and say, "No, that was not okay."
What you did was unacceptable.
It's kind of like what we're talking about in the last episode about setting a boundary.
I'm not going to be that whipping post for you.
If you have a friend who only comes and gives you the stuff and is never there when you
need to give it back.
I'm all, "Okay, here's the deal.
You know what?
If you're paying me, but do you know who I'm getting at?"
Yeah.
That's why I love it. It's like and
When I first came to San Francisco it was I don't want to say it was running
But it may have been running away from my life from before because what before here I I
was just finding out
Understanding about my gay self
And my gay self gay self exactly
You and your gay self I was in it. I was in it. It was a dark time because I was in a depression after my mom had passed
Yeah, and so
Coming here, I can look back now, I see I turned my back on people that had known me for
long periods of time because I was trying to figure out and find who I was.
And it took a really long time.
I used to, used to blow me away that like, if I hadn't been going through that, I probably
would have been able to shape and become the person.
But I didn't know anybody and they didn't know me.
And I didn't feel like, and yeah, I don't know.
Yeah.
Well, we've talked about friendships before,
like forming friendships.
Did it, you know, the friendships that you have now
in recovery that it takes some time to establish them?
- Yeah, yeah.
I think it's fortunate.
We have an easier time than someone who's going
to the bars or whatever.
- Of course you do.
- But it's like, the ones that are lasting,
there's something in the beginning
that causes me to want it,
It makes it cost me to be drawn to them.
But as far as the ones that are really kind of,
in my mind, if we can sit together without talking,
if I could just be in your presence
without needing to fill up the space, that's pretty amazing.
And that just doesn't happen,
especially 'cause initially it's like,
we like in other relationships we send our representative.
Like I'm trying to be who I think you might want me to be,
because I want you in my life.
And it is not until I get to a place where it's like,
you know what, I'm just gonna be me.
You're either gonna be in my life
or you're not gonna be in my life.
And I think that because we're doing,
we have this kind of work going,
we're working on this end and that end.
And you know, that's why I say it's like,
it's super easy.
But yeah.
- Yeah, I think the, for me anyway,
the establishing friendships is,
It's something that takes time in general for me.
I just because I'm not.
I think this isn't, and someone said,
someone told me recently, they're like,
you know, Anthony, there are cat people
and there are dog people.
And you're more of the cat.
You know, and I think that's probably an accurate assessment.
You know, I've gone on dates before
where a guy would say to me,
I didn't think you liked me.
(laughing)
And I'm like, I did, or I do, I do.
I'm just not.
- No, exactly.
- You know what, I hate the way that I've been talking
about myself and like, well, like last episode to now,
'cause I sound like so frigid.
- Yeah, that's not.
- But I think anyone who knows me knows I'm not.
- Yeah, exactly.
- I love in the way that I'm.
- So friendships, it's to the point of friendships.
Going to friendships, it takes me some time.
I just need to know it's a spectrum.
For people that, like, the ones that I'm super close to now that I really care about,
like, you or whatever, it's moving closer to family.
Like, I'm moving away from this idea of just friendship.
You know, you mean more to me than that.
You know, and so it requires work and it requires time.
Yeah, you know what it is, is that I'm very skeptical when it should be.
Yeah, very skeptical when it refers to me.
I am discerning, yeah.
- No, exactly because it's like,
we don't just automatically just because we're feeling better,
we have time or whatever that would let go of the trauma.
Like, and you should, you probably know--
- I don't know it's about my trauma.
- No, I think that more will be revealed as they say.
And sometimes there are things that I have not been able to name,
identify that I haven't worked through.
Because I wasn't, I probably wasn't ready.
And I become ready slowly, or if I'm not ready,
And I see it in somebody else that shut down.
And so it's like, I feel like I wanna take my time
because the worst is I struggle after every time
someone relapses.
- You told me that.
- And it's not as intense as it was early on,
but I'm also kind of a little mindful.
Like we have a few folks who come to the club
and they are dealing with mental challenges or whatever.
- Yeah, mental challenges.
I wanna be loving and supportive.
I'm very cordial, but as far as one day I was,
you know, I'm already like not trying to fuck with you
when I'm on my break.
I got 50 minutes, I'm not sure.
But I was coming up to Sarah's and one of them was like,
all friendly, how's it going to want it to give a hug?
And I'm all, I can't.
And I, very politely, like, but it's like,
I'm all, that's no, I'm sorry.
I do not want to give you the impression
that this door is open.
- Mm.
- Because.
- Is it 'cause of someone you just don't really like?
- Well, no, I don't just like the person.
I just, there's no way to get to a different place with them.
I don't know that they're able to like--
- It's okay, yeah.
- Yeah, it's one of those things where it's like,
you know what you're saying?
It's like, I don't know that this person is as present
as they can be.
- Yeah.
- I like what you said earlier about
they're being like a continuum.
I think that's what you said, because it's not.
There are so many banged degrees of like friendliness.
- Yeah.
- You know, and as I get older, I notice that
there's like, you know, you have your hand full of people
that are your go-to's, you know.
I think it, there was a time when I would get in my head
about like, oh look at this big group of people
that's traveling together and doing that.
- Oh God, I know all the time.
- All the time, yeah.
And then I-- - And it usually felt like--
- Well, that's my point, yeah.
- It usually just break a lot of--
- I just sit back and whatever and watch them
cannibalize themselves.
- No, and you know what,
and I've been in recovery for over 10 years
and it happens every single time.
- All the time, all the time.
- And I realized like, okay, so there are some people
like we may not be chummy now, but our time may come.
And it's always happened that way.
We're all of a sudden it's like one minute,
we don't, you're over there and then we get
to know each other.
And this is why what I was saying,
you know, it's not that I'm not open to
getting to know this individual, different.
It's just that one of the ways that I start
figuring out if this is something,
we need to be able to have conversation and have connection.
And I feel like unfortunately,
this person is still in a place where they're using manipulation
'cause they probably don't know anything else.
And so I don't feel comfortable.
I don't feel like I'm the person for them.
It's like, like I said, I'm gonna love you
from across the street.
It's like, I don't have a poker face.
And so when I see nonsense coming, I'm like, hmm,
I recognize it.
And it's one of the challenges in recovery too,
because when people, we lose a lot of people.
Yeah.
People go for whatever reason they pass on or whatever.
And even if it doesn't feel like it's affecting me,
it affects me.
Yeah.
There's some people.
- I think everyone has a saturation point.
You know, there's some people,
like a good friend that hit me up today.
And I love hanging out with him,
but I can't give it too much time
because at some point he starts getting all sorts of saying.
He can be very negative.
And by negative, I mean,
whole-same things to me.
And I know he's trying to be funny,
but there's nothing funny about what you're saying.
- And I shouldn't have to tell you.
- And I shouldn't have to tell you.
And it's not a personality trait.
So there are just some people where I have a saturation point.
I mean, in general, I need time to myself,
if I'm traveling, for example.
- Oh my God, it's like, oh, I have to be very mindful
because I talked about it a lot,
where really close friend of mine,
we traveled to Palm Springs,
and then we had a phone out.
We have a better relationship now,
but that was the thing.
It's like, if we leave the city limits,
I mean, even talking to South San Francisco,
and you start to show your ass in that way,
that's gonna really do a number.
- Yeah.
It's like I need to I need to feel safe. I need to I need some security and that's not security. Oh
Exactly. Don't be showing your ass and like I'm on
Yeah, yeah, I think you know going back to this idea of being a cat. I think you know very much him
I'm thinking about my cat and how it takes him some time now. I remember when he first moved in
Like he like packed his stuff in came in Wales
When I first brought my cat home from the SPCA, he was terrified and he ran immediately
under my bed.
I didn't want to pull him out because I'm like, "You know, he's scared.
I'm going to give him his space."
At some point, I like lured him out with treats.
He came out with some treats and then he sat in my lap and I pat him and we've been
inseparable since.
Nice.
- So it's kind of the same.
- I feel a little bit, I just need to fight.
- I think for me, and I don't know if this is,
I don't know, I don't think it's neurotic,
it feels healthy to me.
- I think anybody can lure you with traits.
- Yes.
(laughing)
- I do like a treat.
- Anthony's sitting in my lap right now.
- A lap in his head.
- A lap in his head.
- A lot of people.
- That's hard.
- I'll just snap, I'll lure me with snacks.
It's a funny I had, you know, I just finished this
rotation, my pre-doc and the,
this girl and I, we shared in office.
And we'd never spoke to each other,
but we had a treat box and we would communicate and treat.
- Oh, I love you.
- You know, I had add new treats, she would add new treats.
It was really cute.
- Oh, I love that.
- Yeah, and in the end, we had a bit of community,
like we chatted a bit and I was saying,
oh yeah, like our language was snacks and treats.
- I know, it's like, yeah.
- So I think--
- Treat me bitch.
- Yeah, I think it does take me,
it does take me some time to feel close.
And then the other part of that,
and then maybe this is a bit of trauma where,
and when I do get close,
sometimes that can be a little terrifying for me.
There's like a--
- Well, it's risky.
- Well, of course, yeah, I mean, it's,
it's like anything.
- Yeah, it's like, yeah.
That's where this is one of those examples
where I think when we talk about romantic
or platonic relationships,
where there's still friendships break up,
and that hurts.
- Or in recovery, people relapse,
or they move away.
And recently, I had to-- not even recently.
I always talk about my friend, Franklin.
I love Franklin.
Oh, yeah.
Franklin moved to New York.
And so I was hanging out with Franklin and Jason and Zachary.
And we were all--
Franklin was always coming up with fun things for us to do,
going to restaurants and whatever.
And it's not something that I was initiating.
So it was nice.
It was really nice.
And then when he moved away, it's like,
We still are chummy, but it's not that thing.
And it only happens when he comes back.
And I realized it's like, I love that.
I love having kind of set folks to--
but I had to realize that the lenscape changes.
And folks have their things to do,
and they hang out with other people.
And I found myself when I was--
Jason Zachary hanging out with other people as I come
And the beginning I was a little jealous and then I was like, you know what?
I actually flip back on some of the pictures when you were hanging out with people without them.
You know?
Yeah.
And we've talked about that too about there was that like that talk I heard where there was
this scholar explaining like what it, what adult friendships are made of.
Yeah.
Right.
And she was talking about these three rules like we have to be flexible.
We have to accept that people are going to come and go and that's not a reflection of
the quality of the relationship.
No, not at all.
You know?
I just really like, I have gotten to the place where I really enjoy the time.
You know, and I'm good.
I also am in love with the fact that I like being with me and that I don't have to, I
don't have to rely on because someone else to be okay.
You know what I mean?
You know when you were talking about people relapsing,
what you were reminding me of is,
you know, there are some people you're right
that I get close to and there is a part of me
that feels like I have to be a bit guarded
about my emotional investment
because they disappear.
- Yeah, exactly.
- Or they don't show up.
Or they--
- Exactly, or the worst is you build a friendship
and then sometimes without any kind of word,
they break it off, whatever.
- Right, and it's hard not to take that kind of stuff
personally.
- Exactly, it's like, what did I do?
What did I do?
- Yeah, yeah.
- I think, well, I forgot where I was going with this.
I think that's another thing I say a lot.
I forget where I was going with this.
Well, with respect to establishing relationships,
relationships, I was just thinking about when they don't, not necessarily that they don't
work out, but when say like needs change, and I think that's the part like thinking about
what it takes to be flexible, you know.
Like my two closest friends, my two best friends, my best friend Tim, who moved to New York,
and my best friend Stephanie, who she was living in New York, and then she moved to Miami,
and now she's back in California, she's in Newport.
I mean, getting all her government.
And you know, - Doxic her.
- Yeah, doxic her.
And so these are people that I, you know,
I'm still in touch with.
I love them very much.
When I talk to them, you know, we pick up where we left off.
I saw my friend Rebecca the other day,
and I have been spoken to her in over five years,
and it was like we picked up where we left off.
And you know, my goal is to stay in that spirit, you know,
like not try not to try to hold anything.
- Yeah, well, the way that I do that
is remind myself that I have a life.
And to continue to have a life,
continue to do things so that I grow my spiritual self
and I grow my life or whatever.
So that way, I appreciate that folks are going
to do what they need to do.
And I have the opportunity to reach out as often as I can.
I have to pay attention to that,
'cause I fall short sometimes in that.
And I don't know, I wanna be better.
(laughing)
I want to be better too.
Yeah, one of the things that I've been working on
is, or wanna work on, or have been working on
is being more social and meeting new people
and trying new things.
- And you're going to.
- Yeah, and you have experiences.
- Yeah, you know, there's, you know,
a lot of my time is, I have so very little time
to myself right now.
but I have very clear ideas of once I have more flexibility,
the kind of things that I wanna do.
- Go hang out at the ice cream store.
- You know, I just wanna do shit.
I feel like what it is, Lewis,
I feel like I haven't been living my life.
- But you have been living.
- I have been living.
- You haven't been living.
- I haven't been living, well, I have been living my life.
There's just, I just feel, the feeling Lewis is,
there's just this tightness in my chest.
- Uh-huh.
There's like this and I just want to not have that.
And the next step to me feels like, okay, well,
the way we kind of dissolve whatever that is
is by having more experiences, going out into the world
and exploring and trying new things.
And some of that is taking certain risk with people.
It's like hanging out with people maybe that, I don't know.
You know, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I, um, there was something that I was gonna say.
It's like, so, um,
okay.
No, it's, you lost it too.
I'm lost.
I'm at a complete loss.
Yeah.
That's okay.
It's okay.
You can lose things.
I know.
But yeah, friendships can be difficult.
I, yeah, I remember I had this friend in, um, was it grad school?
It doesn't matter.
It was years ago.
And it was actually was my first year of college.
And I absolutely loved this girl.
Her name was Rachel.
And Rachel and I, we hung out all the time.
And I was a very sweet relationship.
And I remember when our last day came that we had to go to our respective homes.
She was from Texas and I was living in Pennsylvania at the time.
I remember sobbing because I was like, "Oh my God, I'm never going to see her again."
And then after that, I would try contacting her and she never took any of my calls.
She never replied to any of my text messages.
She never, I was like, wow, she just disappeared.
Just like that.
I never heard from her again.
Did you ever talk to her again?
No, never again.
Oh my God, it's like she got back and said, no.
You don't need to know.
I thought, yeah, I thought that was wild.
I think I was, I don't know how old I was.
I was maybe 19, she was going.
She was like, you know how these movies have this person that comes back and
is and guides you and is your best friend and then all of a sudden person says,
"No, that person's been dead for 30 years."
Yeah.
So, all of the friendships that I have now in recovery, they've taken a long time.
You know, it's just sharing space and like, you know, opening up and all of that.
Can we talk about learning from relationships that go sour?
And recovery, you know how sometimes you know you get to the ninth step and for those who don't understand what the ninth step is and recovery is when you start to start to make amends for the behavior that you had, you know, for harms or whatever that you call as individuals.
And there were some friendships that, you know, whatever while you were drinking and using sometimes we didn't, we're unable to show up the way we were supposed to show up.
and then when it came time to make him in,
we obviously had some people who were so happy
that we got sober, that we got better,
that they were just, they just wanted that for us
and then we had people who were like, yeah, no, I don't,
you know, I'm happy that you're doing what you need to do
but I don't want you, like, I don't want,
kind of like what I said, I don't want this to be,
look like there's a door being left open
so that you can, and so, I feel like it is in the middle
It is in those relationships and the feelings that I get and the not wanting to ever feel
that way again that causes me to be better for the future because that's when we can make
living kind of like a men's to folks and say.
Right, so you're talking about the lessons we learn when we have friendships and they
don't work out.
Exactly.
Yeah, I think part of what I've learned is, and this is going back to stepwork is what
was my part in those relationships that didn't work out.
And I think it's also possible to feel like you.
I'm gonna go back to what I said before.
What I said before was I don't think,
I think every relationship is a perfect relationship.
That relationship is gonna function perfectly.
- If we stand still and do nothing.
- Right.
But by that I mean that we're brought together with people.
- Yeah.
- For whatever reason that we're brought together
and whatever manifests in that relationship,
manifests in that relationship
because you have those two people in that relationship.
Right?
And some people might say,
oh, you know, like you always take a lesson away
from something or everything happens for a reason.
That's not necessarily language that I would use,
but what I will say is that I do think, again,
when any two people come together,
that stuff is an coincidence,
that there's something happening within that relationship
that is supposed to happen based on the experiences
that a person has had, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
I realize that gets a little problematic
when we're talking about abusive relationships.
I understand that.
And I would venture to say that we can take something away
from all of the relationships that we've been in,
either current or past.
Last thing I'll say is, when things don't work out,
I don't necessarily think that it's because,
I mean, we take what we need and we leave the rest, right?
I mean, I don't mean to speak in platitudes,
but that's essentially where I'm going.
- Ideally, we take what we need and we leave the rest,
but maybe the struggle comes when we,
we don't know that down.
- I think the struggle is when we try to hold on to hard,
too too much, you know?
like when we try to have all of our needs met through one person.
- Yeah, I always talk about like this idea of like sometimes
we hold on to relationships too long
and we sometimes need to let them go and grow
in the direction that they need to.
Yeah, 100% 100%.
- Yeah, because it's like it blows your way when,
when someone is toxic as hell in relation with you,
but they move on and then they have this healthy relationship.
- You know, that's crazy.
He said that because some of the people that I was hanging out with a couple weekends
ago, they were talking about how all of their ex-boyfriends met the love of their life after
they broke up with them.
These were street women, but they were talking about all of their ex-boyfriends.
They had met someone and fell in love and then got married.
I've heard of that happening before.
I know a few ex-boyfriends ago, one of my ex-boyfriends when I was in my 20s, when I broke up with him because
he was fucking about to crazy.
He ended up the guy who was seeing after me,
they were together for a few years
and that guy ended up leaving him in the same way
that I left because it was just, you know,
whatever, he has his problems.
- Well that's helpful to know that it's like,
I'm all, okay, it wasn't me, but.
(laughing)
If you're really on that journey,
a self-discovery and trying to figure out,
you say, okay, I could take this information
and use it to kind of hopefully improve me
or get myself, I don't know, ready?
Or in that case, it's like, whoo, I touched about it.
- Yeah.
There's a line from the portion of Daringray
by Oscar Wilde, where he says,
the worst thing a person can say is forever.
You know, like, I love you forever.
- Oh my God, yeah, 'cause it's like, hello.
- I love you forever, I want this forever.
- And then the following week,
I start to see the cracks in your armor.
(laughing)
- You know, I think that's the hardest part.
I think the hardest part of any relationship
is allowing for another person to be human.
There's something that happens, for example,
when you're in a romantic relationship,
we stop treating them like our friends.
And I know I'm being very general here,
but we hold our lovers, our romantic partners,
to a standard that sometimes I think is unfair.
Yeah, and sometimes we don't hold for ourselves.
Yeah, exactly.
And there's a generosity that we extend to our friends.
I was talking to someone about like, you can kind of tell when you've healed from death.
Well, like, I mean, obviously it's not as simple as I'm going to make it better.
That's a left-hand turn world.
No, no.
Okay, so when someone you love passes away, or when someone you love, and we hold them
up, and you know when they pass away, all of a sudden we're like only speaking about
the good things, good parts.
You know, and nothing else.
And I always know that I've begun the healing, or I met a much better place when I can
start to acknowledge their faults.
Like when I'm all, yeah, they were an asshole.
They were this.
They owed me money.
They were this or whatever.
Instead of like, oh, they were such a good person.
You know, you don't get out.
I mean, it's not that simple, but it's like it is that simple.
Like once I can clear away the smoke screen, and I can start seeing things a little more
clearly and realize, I'm actually glad they're dead.
(laughing)
- You know, I think actually,
you're onto something here because
two thoughts first thought.
When a relationship,
so some of the hardest relationships
to get over are the ones that are short.
And the reason why that is,
is my theory, is that when you're in that relationship,
it's all rising action.
There's like a lot of intensity,
there's a lot of romance and you're kind of existing in a fantasy land for quite some time, right?
When the relationship ends during that moment, during that time, it's so easy to recall the
intensity, right? And the truth is, is that you weren't ever, there wasn't enough time for you to be
grounded by what it means to be with like another human being, right? So there's something about
like the fantasy, right? Like, you know, you haven't, you didn't travel with them. You haven't,
And you know, had like full conversations, you haven't met each other's families, right?
So there's a way like the fantasy starts to shift, right?
So I think that's the first idea.
The other idea is that when you're in a relationship romantic or platonic or in community, there's
a way that we can have, again, fantasies about what it's supposed to look and sound like,
right?
And when it falls short of those fantasies,
we become incredibly disappointed, right?
Expectations, breed resentments.
And I find that if I allow for there to be room
for me to grow and the other person to grow
and like for my community to grow,
then I'm a lot less rigid.
- Oh yeah.
- But we have to create that room.
- Well we have to.
I was thinking about two, something else along with
like what you were talking about.
those newer relationships, it's that, what if?
What if, you know, like, that longing for like a met,
or that, and the fact that I didn't have that information
is like, oh, 'cause you know how when you're like,
oh God, especially if they get together
with somebody else right away.
And you're like, yeah, it's, can feel so crushing.
Oh yeah, that can feel so crushing.
I, yeah, no one likes that.
No one likes rejection.
No one likes to feel like they're less than, you know.
What I would say is you aren't less than.
- Not at all.
- You know.
And I would also say that, you know,
when I pull the lens back and I look at the nature
of my relationships or the relationships
that it see people around me in,
there is an impermanence to them and that's fine.
that I get into trouble when I'm trying to keep things the same.
Yeah.
You know, when I'm...
And I think that's part of it.
Like I can remember being a teenager and like the first...
My first love, I remember thinking...
I remember when it didn't, you know, you break up and it's devastating
because I'll never feel this again.
No, I'm not.
This was the only person I...
I remember my first love was this guy named Daniel.
When I was...
I was like a teenager.
Yeah, I was still a teen during that time.
And I was madly in love with Danny.
And when we broke up, I was absolutely devastated.
And the thoughts that I had where I'm never going to love someone the way I love this person.
There's no one's ever, like, and it was so crazy.
But, you know, obviously, you grow up.
You realize that, you know, relationships will have been a flow.
you realize that no there isn't just one person that you can meet other people that love is a choice
yeah that love is something you cultivate love is a choice in my opinion okay so no it yeah it is a choice
it's a choice but but at some point it it you lose the choice don't you do you believe in love what
What are you saying?
- Okay, so like to kind of before you fall in love,
like, is it really a choice?
- Well, falling in love.
- Like if I love, if I'm in love with you, whatever,
I can't just say, I choose not to.
- Listen, there's falling in love
and one of the other things that I've heard is,
there's no, there's arriving in love, right?
There's something about falling in love,
or something about that that feels really unsettling
'cause you're falling, right?
And it's right, or you could arrive in love.
- Who arrives?
- Love.
- I think it's very intentional.
I think you have two people that come together
who are like, "Hey, I'm developing these feelings."
You know?
- Yeah, okay.
So, I love that.
- Yeah.
- I love that, but I don't think that a lot of people
are there.
I think that's advanced shit.
- Okay.
- Yeah, no, I think that's true.
I think you're 100% I think you're right.
- But maybe that's the goal.
Folks wanna arise.
- Because what, yeah, because here's the thing is that
the feeling of falling in love, this is well documented
and well studied, you know,
there's so many hormones raging through our body, you know?
The oxatocin gets released and we love that feeling
of connection.
There's a lot of passion and intensity
and that is not sustainable.
that's not you, you wear yourself out, right?
And when you're making decisions in that state,
you're essentially fucking drunk, you're drunk and love,
right?
You're drunk and it may not feel sexy
to sit down and have a conversation about something,
but I think that's how you arrive in love.
And maybe that's just me, me, I'll be the one
who says I'm a Virgo this time.
(laughing)
I'm a Virgo and I'm also an INFJ.
Have you ever done your Myers-Briggs?
I have, but I don't remember what yours is.
Yeah, so I'm gonna also deny an FJ.
And so this is, you know, I have certainly
have had the experience of falling in love.
- Yeah.
- But sometimes we can fall in love
with people who aren't right for us.
- Yeah, oh, a lot.
- Right, and so, and I think the falling is that's part of it.
It's like sometimes I, maybe it's not sexy,
but sometimes you have to pump the brakes
and say, "Hey, what are we doing here?"
- Yeah, exactly.
So are we landing the play?
- We are landing the play.
- Yeah, that's not like a very natural end there.
I think I'm buying time so that Lewis can pull up the script
and if he doesn't find it in a couple seconds,
why don't you just read off of this one?
- Yeah, so the Castral Country Club
is a safe and sober community center for all
and refuge for the LGBTQIA recovery community.
- We provide programs and services
that help change lives by supporting personal growth.
I'm reading upside down.
- Exactly, and our vision is to reduce
the suffering of addiction by connecting people
to community opportunity and support.
- You can find more information
including all the ways to contact us at www.castrocountryclub.org
Upslash Podcast.
and catch every new episodes Monday when they drop on
wherever you listen to our podcast.
- Our podcast, yes.
- Okay, we love you, bye.
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