Learning To Live: Growth & Recovery w/ Dr. Rodriguez 🏳️‍🌈 A Queer Recovery Podcast 🎙️

🎙️ This week we welcomed Dr. Rodriguez to the show.   Dr. Rodriguez is a dedicated clinician, educator, and advocate with over 25 years of experience in social services. She earned her Bachelor’s in Sociology from Notre Dame de Namur University, a Master’s in Marriage, Family, and Child Counseling with an emphasis on Latinx Family Studies from Pacific Oaks College, and a Doctorate in Psychology with an emphasis on Marital and Family Therapy from The Chicago School of Professional Psychology.

🎙️ Since 1998, she has specialized in trauma, abuse, Latinx family systems, LGBTQIA+ competencies, and systems of care. As a clinical supervisor, she helped develop the Los Angeles LGBT Center’s RISE manual, aimed at reducing LGBTQ youth in long-term foster care.

🎙️ Currently, Dr. Rodriguez is an Administrative Faculty Member at Pacific Oaks College, where she coordinates the Latinx Family Studies and LGBTQIA+ Studies Marriage and Family Therapy programs. She remains deeply committed to training future clinicians and expanding access to quality mental health services for underserved communities.

🏳️‍🌈 Have any questions, comment or suggestions? Wanna be a guest co-host?

 🏳️‍🌈 Join Anthony & LouiLou for a new episode every Monday.  We record live from The Castro Country Club in San Francisco.

 🏳️‍🌈 We strive to create a brave space where we engage in topics of recovery, where there are no outside issues.

 🏳️‍🌈 Find us on all podcast channels: At The CCC

🏳️‍🌈 To send us a voice message or ask a question: go to https://www.castrocountryclub.org/podcast

#Queer #Recovery #LGBTQIA2S #Service #selfcare #selflove

Transcript

0:00

Welcome, you are at the CCC. Where there are no outside issues, my name is Anthony I'm an addict and an alcoholic, another bozo on the bus, and I care about you. Yes, and I'm Louilou, my pronouns are he and him and I am a recovery for Crystal Meth and Alcohol, and I am always in search of balance. And each week we strive to foster a brave space where we can engage in conversations centered around topics of recovery. And our intention is to hold an inspire better spaces for more people in recovery by tackling issues sometimes used to separate us.- Yes, but before we do that, please like, share, comment, and rate this episode.- Rate this episode, give us as many stars as you can. Nothing less than as many stars as you can.- It's gonna kinda like keep going back and rating us.- Yeah, just keep telling your friends about us, your family about us.- Absolutely.- Your exes about us, your in-laws, and now the disclaimer. The thoughts and opinions expressed on that, the CCCR is alone, we do not represent anyone but ourselves. In other words, we're just a couple of friends behind a mic here to entertain you. And of course, everything we talk about for general information purposes only.- Absolutely. So today we are honored to have Dr. Rodriguez on the podcast and esteemed clinician, educator and advocate dedicated to supporting Latinx and LGBTQIA+ communities with over two decades of experience in social services. She has worked extensively in trauma, abuse, and family systems, specializing in culturally responsive care. Dr. Rodriguez played a key role in shaping LGBTQIA plus mental health advocacy, co-authoring the Los Angeles LGBT Center's rise manual, a groundbreaking initiative to reduce heterosexism and anti-transgender bias in foster care. Currently, she serves as an administrative faculty member at Pacific Oaks College, where she coordinates both the Latinx family studies and LGBTQIA plus studies, marriage and family therapy programs. Through her work, she's helping to shape the next generation of clinicians while continuing to push for equity and mental health. We're thrilled to have her here to discuss education and recovery trauma and what it takes to truly support LGBTQIA+ individuals. Welcome Dr. Roger. Thank you. Thank you. I was going to say she sounds great. But please call you Eugenia. Eugenia? Okay, Eugenia. Thank you. We're already on first-name- We're already besties.- Besties. How's everyone doing?- Let's start with Eugenia.- I'm doing well. It's awfully missed the outside today.- It is. I feel so damp right now. My armpits are sweaty.- Yeah, it's that, it's that rain.- It's that rain?(laughing)- No, I just feel like my whole body just feels really damp.(laughing) But how are you?(laughing)- I'm not damp.(laughing) I'm doing well. I actually bought this sweater today because I was not prepared for-- And I used to live up here for about seven years. And I totally forgot the chill that happens when the wind and the rain decided to be friends. So other than that, you know what? I am all right. I don't think they're friends. I think they just are working together to get us. That's true. Is the enemy of my enemy my friend? Yeah. That's awesome.- Yeah, my week's been pretty cool. And today's been fine. I worked out a really long day today. Yeah, it was, 'cause I commute on Mondays and Wednesdays. So it was an hour there, an hour back. It's not so bad, I like listening to podcasts.- Well, that's what it's like.- I try never to spend more time traveling than I do there. So if I have to travel one hour there and one hour back, I'm at least there for two hours. I have to be there at least. That's the only way it feels worth it.- I love that algorithm. That's really good. So if you all don't mind, we're gonna jump in, go ahead.- I'm doing amazing.- Oh, it's you. I could have with all the talking you were doing, I thought you did tell us.(laughing)- Wow, I was like, I'm all.- I was waiting for you.- Jam, Jam, Jam.(laughing) Well, I was just gonna share something significant today. Okay, so it had been over eight years that I trained someone here at the club.- Oh, yeah, yeah.- And so, it's like today, I had the great fortune of helping, if you don't know, The Castro Country Club is run on volunteers. You have three employees, but the majority of the folks that you see around are volunteers. And so I had been trying to find a way to get back because what happens when you recover is your life gets bigger. Yeah, that's right. And so I've been able to work it out and it's really nice because I was a coffee jerk or whatever, like a barista. And once you have it, you don't lose it. So like with love and anything else, the only way to keep it is to give it away. Oh, yeah. That's quite wonderful. Oh, yes. I've already feeling how this is going to go. I kid. I kid. So if I can start with their first question. Sure. Sure. Yeah, so please tell us a little bit more about what inspired you to go into mental health specifically working with LGBTQ+ folks? In the recent form, I identify as a queer woman of color. I'm Latine. I am a child of immigrant. I think that it's important to be able to see yourself in the work that you do. And so coming into school, my mother was a secretary. My father is a mechanic. And they always told us your job is to go to school. So thankfully, I was instilled to just do something. And part of that was giving back. And the funny thing is, it's actually when everyone asking, what do you want to be a therapist? Someone once told me that I might be good at this. And I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do for my bachelors. And so I said, oh, maybe psychology. But I actually ended up getting a bachelors in sociology with an emphasis on social action right here at the University of Notre Dame de Numerie in Belmont. And then I had the minor in psychology. And I thought I was just going to do case management for the rest of my life. And I ended up falling into a meeting where one of my aunts was doing kind of this indigenous ceremony. And then in that, I met someone who was actually the head of one of the programs that I now run.- Oh wow.- And so she had a conversation very much. She had a conversation with me and she said, you know, I have this program. Would you like to apply? And so I applied, I got in and, you know, 21 years in May it'll be. I'm here I am.- Congratulations on 21 years.- Yes, it's been.(laughing)- Yeah, so there's so much there. I wanna hear a little bit more about what you said, someone told you that you might be good at this. That sounds like a very pivotal moment.- You know what, it's so weird because I don't even remember like the person that told that to me. I just remember thinking, what do I wanna do? Like what do I wanna do with my life? what is kind of my path moving forward. And since my parents had, you know, try education, see what you can do. You know, my dad always thought I would end up being a teacher full circle. I am a teacher now. But, you know, someone once said, oh, well, you're a really good listener. Why don't you maybe, like, counseling? And so I just kind of fell into that. And so when I was finishing with my bachelors, I remember this one instructor, she was asking everyone, what do you wanna do when you finish, what do you want to do with your finish? And I said, I want to be a therapist. And this one looked at me, she's like, do you think you can do that with just the bachelors? And I thought, wow. Of course, I said, well, of course not. But up until that moment, I didn't know, because I didn't know anyone that was doing this work. And so after that, I started doing case management met therapists. And I saw these kids I was working with that they would connect to me because of who I was, what I looked like. the things that I brought to the table that helped them open up more than to the therapist that maybe didn't have those connections with them. And I thought, you know what? I think I do want to do this. I think I can be okay with this. That's fantastic. Yeah. And it sounds like, and maybe this is like what I'm hearing in the subtext is that part of the motivation was your ability to connect, right? Yeah. Absolutely. I worked with foster kids for over a decade. And a lot of the times, unfortunately, it was BiPoc kids and queer kids that were in foster care. And it broke my soul, not just my heart, it broke my soul. And so going into those spaces and saying, "You know, I see you. I see all of you." Not just the pieces that people want you to like fix, not just the people, the pieces that say people are broken. I see all of you as a whole. And it kept me doing what I am today. when you mentioned that voice and not remembering, but it's almost like a higher power moment. Almost, yeah. It's like, it was just this. And so I don't know if anybody speaks Spanish that's listening, but sometimes we tease about it. Grandelos de Dios, like the great finger of God. And so it was one of those grandelo moments where it's like, hey you, who's randomly deciding about your life? Why don't you try this? And I'm sure. I love that. You mentioned working in the foster care system, which I imagine came with its challenges. And so I'm curious about what are some challenges that you've come across in your work with LGBT+ youth. And not about the youth themselves or LGBT folks, but the challenges you may have faced along the way. I think one of the things, especially in foster care, people need to understand that you are volunteering to do this work as a parent. You're a foster parent. You're not a foster employee. And so when people go into these spaces and they treat the being a foster parent like a job, then they see everything through the lens of a job. So if the kid isn't listening, they're like, well, put them in another house. Or if they don't understand, they're like, well, put them in another house. Or tell them, they would tell them the kids when I would go to the house. And they'd say, oh, tell them what you did. And I'm like, mm-hmm. I am not an enforcer. I am not the person that has to bring down the hammer. I am a support for them. I'm a support for you. And for me, being a foster parent means that you are putting in a place as a parent. And so what do parents do? They shouldn't tell you, I don't want you because you're not-- you don't look like I wanted you to look. You don't act like I wanted you to act. You don't believe what I want you to believe. A parent should be able to, I mean, we don't, parents don't come with a manual, but we should be able to work in spaces to navigate. That's why you get other services. Case managers, peer specialists, therapists. And so for me, it was never the kids. I always think that kids are like water. They are going to fill the container they're poured into. And if your container is twisted and jagged, that's the kid that you're gonna see. And so I would try to remind the parents, You're the one that's pouring them into that shape. Give them an opportunity to be another shape. Because everything that we learn as we're growing up, we reinforce it as we get older. Because that's the only thing that we've ever known. So if I've only ever been poured into these twisted jagged shapes, guess what? As an adult, I'm going to feel that I'm twisted in jagged. That's right, yeah. And so I'm not going to know what it is to feel soft or what it is to feel smooth. Absolutely. Yeah, you're reminding me about the harm that can be caused when a young person is still developing. It makes me wonder, I'm thinking about the folks that you've worked with that you feel like have been able to get past those kind of issues, the harms caused by parents and what that has looked like. What are some characteristics that they've had or the support that they had? It's interesting because I teach and I also work in private practice, but I always tell people one thing that we all have in common is that we were all children. And so one of the characteristics that I see and folks that have been able to kind of move forward is starting to understand who they are. You know, not the shape they're poured into, but who they know themselves to be. And sometimes they feel like they have to get lost to find themselves again. sometimes getting lost comes with a lot of pitfalls. And so being able to find yourself, being able to learn how to love yourself, knowing that perfection is a myth. And it is a myth that looks nice and fluffy, but it's surrounded by barbed wire. Yeah. And I'm sorry. OK, there's a question. And I don't want to go too far, because we have a lot to talk about. I was thinking about with your insight with regards to the role of the parents, especially in the foster care system, having that insight, were you able to help shape and maybe change attitudes?- Yes, I was. I feel privileged that I was able to be in that space. I think one of the things that's important is you have to, no one wants you to tell them that you don't know what you're doing.(laughs) No one in the history of ever has been like,"You know what you're right, I have no idea"what I'm doing with my life." Thank you for letting me know. So you have to come in as a support.- Uh-huh. And you come in and say that with a space that you don't want to argue, you don't want to tell them you're absolutely wrong. What you want to tell them is that there are other ways to do it. Because if you keep doing things this way, and the results are not the results that you need, then maybe it's not the kid that's wrong. It's the approach that needs to be modified. Not fixed because fixed and not broken, but modified. Let's see how we can shift this. I used to do parenting classes working with Spanish-speaking foster parents were always to talk about is LGBTQI plus identity. This is the definition of this. This is the definition of that. This is what gender identity is. This is what it's not. And so I think for me being able to have parents even show up to my parenting classes when I was doing that, that was a win.- Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so one of the things that I love about your story is that education kind of became this way out, right? And that was reinforced by your parents. So, can you say a little bit more about how education has been a tool for you and then also how education may have been a tool for some of your clients? For me, education is been the road for me to be able to learn who I am. It's been a road for me to be able to learn what I'm capable of. And there's different kinds of education There's the kind of education that you go, you sit in the room, you listen, you answer questions, you write papers, and if they say you've done it well enough, you go to the next level. But even that is, there's a capital. It's a terminal degree. Like a terminal degree is like it's the highest degree in whatever field that you're in. So having my doctorate, you could say I've reached that level, but I know that the minute that I think that I know it all, I've already lost something that was important to know.- Right.- And so for me, education, it taught me to continue to be curious. And so the education in my life that I've had, my kids have taught me, my foster kids, my kids, and I say my kids, I mean my clients, even the adults, the kids, all of them. They've taught me more than I think I could ever give them. I also thank you for your gift to me.- Yeah.- You know, I wanna help you, and I go in very clearly saying, I can't fix you because no one can fix someone else. I can walk with you and you're healing. And my education taught me that, my life education, my formal education. And so what I wanna do is I wanna be able to help instill that into the people that I work with.- Yeah, that's so beautiful. Yeah, you're reminding me a lot of, so my grandmother, she's 80 and she was born in Puerto Rico. And the town that she's from, They had a McDonalds before they had a high school. And so the highest grade she completed was the sixth grade, and then they migrated to New York City. And so I share all of that to say that my grandmother didn't have a formal education, right? But it was like through my relationship with her that I learned how to like show up for people and like what family ties mean. And so I agree, right? That there's so many different forms of education that, you know, I think sometimes it can feel like we have to privilege like a formal higher education, but really there's just there's so many different ways of growing in that way. Absolutely. It's what does learning mean to you and in what way can you seek learning? You know, sometimes people listen to this podcast, right? And they'll say, oh, this is-- Sometimes. So I was going to do more examples. She's like, I don't know who listens. I don't know what this is.(laughing) Please don't turn it off. You know, promise. There was a complete sentence in that. But sometimes you listen to podcasts. Sometimes you read a book. Sometimes you talk to someone else. There's all these ways of opening yourself up to knowledge.- I like who you said. This idea of being curious.- Yeah.- Because at work, the staff that I work with, I'm always challenging them. be curious. You know, don't just walk through and accept things as they are. Like maybe something can be different. And I am learning that I don't know everything in that situation. And it really makes a difference. It takes a lot of the stress off of me thinking, you know, I got this, I know it all. Yeah. Well, I think that's a really excellent point. I think one of the things about learning and education or knowledge is this thing that you understand that you don't know everything. And you have to be okay with not knowing everything. We're not gonna be the end all be all. There's no way that we have enough time or capacity to do that. And so once we accept that, then we realize every moment can be a learning moment. Every conversation can be a tool in my growth, in my recovery. And so these are the things that we have to lean into and be vulnerable. I think learning being open to education, being open to connection, you have to be vulnerable. And that's scary. Yeah. I love your use of the word growth here because part of like I think what you're saying is like education can be determined by asking yourself the question, how do I want to grow? Right. And then that can determine your trajectory. And maybe that means you're pursuing higher education. Maybe that means you're learning how to become a yoga instructor. Maybe it means you're learning how to do hair. Maybe it means you're learning how to become a community organizer, right? But it can all start with just asking yourself, how do I want to grow? So in your practice, have you worked with people who have made major career changes while they've been in therapy or in recovery? That's usually when people want to make big changes. Oh, say more. Yes, absolutely. And I think one of the things that when people are going through major shifts in the their self and their identity. And they feel that they're on a road to growth and recovery. And like you were saying, the world gets bigger and now they want to be able to give to the world. Because so many times they feel like I've been taking from so much from the world. I've been taking from emotionally, financially, whatever, from my family, from my friends, from the community. And now, now that I'm on my path to my recovery, now that I'm on my path to my self-actualization, I want to give back. I want to give because I have taken so much. And so a lot of times people try to do kind of the work that I like so short work and therapy. Like you want to you want to be who you have seen on the road to your space to grow. It's like how we emulate our parents or whatever. We hold them all the pedestal. It's like, oh yeah. I've experienced that. And I think for me, the most amazing thing when I finally realized, no, that's not what I want to do.(laughing)- Yes.(laughing)- Maybe not, maybe not.- Maybe not.- Right, so you know, you said you're coming up on 21 years of practice, which is a long time, but there's a lot of experience and there's a lot of story in that. And so I'm wondering if you could say a little bit more about like when working with people, what has, what were successes and challenges? What did those look like for you when working with people say, for example, in recovery?- So I, one of the things that I was doing as I was first coming up through my training as an MFT, not even graduated was I was working with folks that were recently diagnosed with HIV or had family members that were diagnosed with HIV. And I distinctly remember one client that I was working with. And he had recently had the diagnosis. And I was one of the clinicians that was working in that kind of sector. And it comes to find out that he was, you know, we would take conventionally handsome. And he had been severely abused by his father, his sibling, because he was more a feminine, the father would make the other sibling kind of beat him up to kind of make him more manly. And so it ended up that he had very, very low self esteem. And so as soon as he could, he started drinking. He would sneak a drink here. He would sneak a drink there. No one's going to notice a drink from every bottle, because it's too little. And so sneaking a drink then became drinking on their own once they moved out. And then that became using drugs. And then that became-- I needed the drugs to be able to have sex. And then it became the sex. And so I got him at the tail end of that, because now after his diagnosis, he thought, well, everything's gone now. Like, I have nothing. I used to be able to drink. And I can't do that anymore. And I was doing drugs. And I couldn't do that. It would help me have sex. And I can't do that. And so what do I have? What am I going to do? And so for the work that we were doing, I think one of the biggest things that we needed to connect to was-- and that's why I say, you know, every adult was a kid. We were connecting back to that kid that used to get beat up all the time. And I would say, you know, if we were to talk to him because he's still there, every time that you have a moment of stress, every time that you have a moment of trauma, every time that you have a moment where you feel extremely overwhelmed, the person that is reacting is that little kid. It's not adult you. It's not adult you that now is going to the gym obsessively because you can't do any of the other things. So now you're living at the gym. It's that little kid that was getting beat up by his brother and being told to be beat up by the dad. And so what did he need? And so in finding what he needed, we were able to then work on adult him. Because now young him felt secure. He felt safer. And so safer little him helped save or older him. And so that was for me, even being able to look at the mirror for like 10 seconds without looking away was huge for him. I would say, well, look in the mirror. How long can you look in the mirror? Let's do it together. Don't look at me, look at you. And even being able to say, who do you see in that mirror? Like, not, it's like, oh, this one eye is too big, and this one eye is too little, and my lip is turning that way. No, no, no, no, not just all your physical things, but who's there? In this moment, do you feel safe? Is it little you? Is it adult you? Is it a you that you don't recognize? Like, who is it? And that was just one of the steps that he was able to take as he was able to kind of move forward. And I think for me, I don't know if it sounds silly, but for me, a success was when he would come in and he was smiling. And it was a genuine smile. And knowing that a bad day didn't mean a bad life. And for me, that was a success. And I think about him a lot. I've really think I hope he's doing well. Yeah. Yeah. You know, what's striking to me about what you're saying And you've said this in a few different ways is that the solution and answers almost always love. It's love for that younger part of ourselves, love for the part of us that wants to heal, love for the part of us that's ready to grow and move past things. So you've talked about-- I think this is a very interesting-- interesting is not the right word. But I was going to say interesting. I think it's a very heartfelt example. And it makes me wonder about, like, in your experience, how have you seen, like, trauma show up for people, especially, like, as it relates to being, like, LGBTQ+ identified?- How long do we have?- I know. (laughs) We've got time.- I know. That is like a 10 pound question, packed in a five pound bag. So trauma. So the way that I define trauma is that trauma is something that overwhelms your capacity to cope. And different people have different capacities to cope. Based on your history, based on the things that have happened in your life, based on your coping skills, all of those things are different. I think of it like a cup, right? Some people come in with a larger cup, like you have right here. Some of them have a smaller one. And so that's why--- Some people have no cup.- Some people have no.(laughing) Pretender was like a tiny, tiny cup.(laughing) This is not indicative of anyone's coping, just using, for example. But, you know, that's why two people can go through the same thing and one of them feels severely traumatized and another person doesn't, because it might have completely flooded someone's cup. And the other one was like, well, it almost hit the top, but I think I'm okay. And so, one of the things that I've seen the way trauma work out, especially within our LGBTQI+ communities, is that very often we're already running around with some liquid in our cup. We're already running around with stuff that we maybe haven't had the opportunity to kind of spill and like pour it out. And so then what happens is if we're walking around with a cup that's already a quarter full, something happens and it's another quarter. Now our cup is half full. So then when something bigger happens, what would have probably not overflowed, now it's a mess everywhere. And so what do we do? We pretend that it's not there. We pretend that we're fine because acknowledging that the cup has spilled over, acknowledging that there are some things that might need to get cleaned up so that we have a cup that's okay, or even doing the work to grow our cup is scary. You know, if you haven't had examples like that before, if you haven't had people to support you and say, you know what? It's spilled, but let's help you clean it up. Let's help you pour some of that out. If you haven't had that, then every time it spills, it feels like a catastrophe because it is. And so, especially within LGBTQI+ communities, I talk a lot about minority stress. And so, basically, that's a theory that because of an already existing marginalized identity, We're already experiencing stigma. We're already experiencing bias. We're already experiencing stress. So I'm married. And you know, my wife is Puerto Rican. We might be cousins. Oh, OK. We may be cousins. It's very possible. It's very, very possible. We can have an entire different podcast on Spanish from Puerto Rico and Spanish from Mexico. Yeah. We've created a translator of the first time on Puerto Rico. But I love it. But there's different things and spaces. So I have to always think, can I walk down the street holding my wife's hand?- Yeah.- I identify a little more masculine of center. And so for me, center's more andogenous and I identify a little more masculine of that. My wife is pretty feminine. And so, we don't really look like best friends going to get a yogurt.(laughing) And so I work, stop.- Although we could, I love fro yo.- Yeah.- Let's go to Pinkberry any day. But I'm afraid. So if I am afraid, if I hold her hand in a certain place, my cup is already going to start feeling. And so if something huge happened, I already have less capacity to cope. And so we have to realize that the way to be able to facilitate healing is to always assess to see if there has been trauma, if there have been things that have overwhelmed your capacity to cope. If now the cup that you thought you had feels like it shrunk. How do we grow it?- I was listening to that and I was thinking, where does the drugs in alcohol or the bad behavior or whatever, where does that come in? Because we're in a healthy situation, like you said, we'd be looking for ways to grow the cup or to get rid of some of the liquid, but unfortunately we don't have that information. We use things like drugs in alcohols that we think is healing us, or getting us ready for healing, and it's actually doing more damage.- Yeah, I'm gonna go back to my cup analogy, right?- I love it.- Come back to the cup.- You know, like Stanley cups, right? They're double insulated, so you think that they're good, I know.- I know, that's okay.- I'm a hydroflask person.- Yeah, me too.- You know, this isn't being sponsored, but--- Yeah, neither one of those brands is sponsoring.- No one sponsors us, but--- But if you're interested,- If you want to send us that.- Sorry, I didn't mean to derail you. You're good.- No, it's okay. I'm telling you, I'm like a chipmunk. I see something shiny, I go over to there and I'm like, oh yeah, yeah, twinsies.- Yeah, I'm a Stanley co, okay, let's do a Hydroflask, right?- Hydroflask.- Sometimes you see these double walled tumblers or cups or whatever, and you think it holds more liquid than it does, but it doesn't. And so drugs, alcohol, sex, anything that'll fill that, It makes you think your cup is bigger. But in reality, it's shrinking it. Because it's taking away other spaces for you. Because then it becomes about the next hit or becomes about the next drink. Because why? Oh, I'm making your cup bigger. Yeah. And so it fits in the space where it feels like it might be helping you cope. But in reality, it's actually making it kind of smaller. Yeah. I like love your analogy. I'm gonna leave here talking about cups But yeah, I love you're I tell people like talking pictures. I love a picture. No, I think I do I love a picture because it's like more than not you can understand it's like especially if I Visual if I can see it or if I can visualize it. I'm all I get it Like hey When this one's talking when No, hey It's like the peanuts. It's like, of course I did my homework. Waa, waa, waa, waa, I don't know what happened. It's because my voice is so soothing. Oh, it is. That's why I don't turn it off. Okay. I am thoroughly so, do that. Oh, like, I'm happy. Well, you said something earlier that you wrote down that I wanted you to say, because it's so related to what you were just talking about. I was like, oh, this would be a perfect opportunity. I had to flip the page. Yeah, so do you remember what you said? It said that, you know, we were talking about-- the cups talking about it, and then we're going back to the cups. And I had said, you know, the, uh, I'm gonna have to read it because there you go. We are going there. It says, the thing that wants to kill you is whispering in your ear that it's the only one that loves you.- Yeah. Ugh, that makes me emotional.- Absolutely.- Yeah, because I feel like there's so many, you know, like when we think about like 12 step, for example, and there's like a fourth step where you do this fearless moral inventory of yourself, and there's a way that looking at that stuff can feel like it's undoing you. And so much of it for such a long time, like these different behaviors that people believed, you know, was making their cup bigger, believed was helping them. There's a kind of grieving process that has to happen when you realize like, no, actually this isn't the love that I thought it was.- Yeah.- Yeah. So what are some of the strategies that you've found like among clients that you've worked with or in your work in general that have been, I guess the most generative for some of the people that you've worked with. Oh, I know. Let me, I'm like, that's, I'm like, also your opinion, you know, these are such big questions. Mm-hmm. No, I love it, but they're really big questions. So my brain is having to funnel it into one sentence. You know, I, it may sound really kind of pedestrian, but you have to kind of start where they're at. And you have to, you have to begin with the end in mind. Because think of it, think of it like a treasure map, right? If you don't know where the X is, or if you don't have an inkling where the X is, you're just going to be wandering around that island. So it's important to begin with the end in mind. And sometimes they may not know it. It's like, okay, well, give me a guess. And if it changes along the way, then it changes along the way. And so if we begin with that, then we have a destination. And so it's that's, and then they select the destination. I don't tell them, "Oh, you have to do this and you have to do that." And you have to, because that's not my life. And I also let them know that they're the ones that are in charge of their treatment. And when you feel so powerless in so many avenues of your life, and you come into this space where supposedly this expert is going to help you, to be able to be told, "You're the expert of your life, and I'm here to walk with you in your healing." That in itself can be something that is completely unheard of for someone. If you've always been told you're a loser, you're this, you're that. You're going to, I always tell people, you only need someone to tell you something so many times before that voice in your head becomes yours and not theirs. So they come in thinking, I am all of these things and none of them are lovable. I am all of these things and none of them are worthy. So of course, of course you're going to reach for the drink. Of course you're going to go and get your next hit. Why? Because again, it's telling you no one loves you but me. And when you go in there and say, whoever you are is absolutely okay, it begins to kind of dismantle that hold that kind of fake love has. Yeah. And then it leaves you room to start growing and you love for yourself. Yeah. One of the most powerful things that was ever said to me by, it was a colleague. I like, I'd went to him, this is when I was a baby clinician, I'm still a baby clinician, but when I was a baby clinician, I remember he, I was going to supervision, and I was talking about a case, and he stopped to me, and he goes, Anthony, there's nothing wrong with you. And then I was gonna talk, and he goes, Anthony, there's nothing wrong with you. And he said it at their time, and then I was like, oh shit, no one's ever told me there's nothing wrong with me. You know, like within that kind of context, that brought up that memory for me. Yeah, I mean, I think the other thing here too is, I'm thinking a lot about community, right? And the ways that people can cultivate strength in themselves. And so I'm wondering like, what do you think the role of community is in healing?- Communities, everything.(laughs) It is, it's everything because there has to be something after you leave my office after we turn off the zoom or whatever. You know, because even if we meet every day, it's only gonna be seven hours a week. How many more hours of the week do you have? And so in that time, there needs to be something else, someone else that can help fill those spaces with something positive, with something affirming, with something that can just kind of hold that space, because if not, you know, your old patterns we'll try to find a way to sneak into those spaces. I think of it like rocks and you try to pour sand in. The sand is gonna get into, you know, if you've ever been to the beach and you wear jeans, they're just gonna get in everywhere.- Yeah.- That's why I don't go to the beach.- That's why you don't go to the beach.- It's like you avoid the water to go to the beach.- That's why you don't wear jeans.- That's why you don't wear jeans.- It's like a stereotype. You can't have that going.- It gets in my hair.(laughing)- You know, I think of these habits like sand, right? They just fill in the crevices. And then it's so hard to get rid of them. And then you think, well, I thought, I thought I had gotten rid of all this sand. And it's like, nope, it's still there. And so community is that space that helps fill these things in with warmth, with comfort, with support, with love.- On that same token, and I love the idea of the community and making sure you have something outside of what you do. But how do you prepare them to turn away from things that are toxic? Like because what if that community is creating--- Oh yeah. Oh, I'm gonna go into other analogy.- Let's hear it. I'm ready for 'em.- I think of systems theory a lot. And so systems theory, I think of all of us and our communities like a grandfather clock, right? You look at this grandfather clock and there's all these gears. And each gear is a specific shape because it needs to do a specific job to keep the clock moving. And so what happens in anything, in any kind of growth and any kind of, we talk about education, We talk about recovery. It's like if you take out a piece of that machine and you change it shape. And so sometimes you can insert it back into the machine and the machine is going to adjust. But if it doesn't adjust, then that's going to break. And so then you have to start making steps in your life to find where this cog now fits. Because if you want your life to work and you're trying to shove it into the old space, it's not going to work. And change is hard because you might be afraid of, you know, you might be afraid of change. So then you slide back to your old behaviors. Then you stop being afraid of change. Now you're afraid of failing because you got over that fear of change. Now you're afraid to fail. So what do you do? You make yourself slide back. Because I'd rather it be my choice than we really want to and I don't. And then finally, which kind of sounds, you're not kind of intuitive, but you could be afraid of success. Oh, I know, yeah. Because if you walk through that door and you're different, that means the things around you have to be different. You know, what if you live with your dealer? What if your family is struggling in their own addiction? What if the only reason that you even liked your boyfriend is because you guys got to high together? Like all of these things. And so sometimes if they're not ready to kind of make that move past that, then the fear of success might make them slide back. And so it's by preparing them and saying, hey, let's find community. You're not in this alone. So in the time that we meet, what would community, if you had a magic wand and poof community was there, what would it look like? So let's try to find if there's something like that or the closest proximity to it. And let's see what that does. Yeah, that's, I love this take on community because I'm thinking about how a community can pull you in any direction. So for example, I'm thinking about some of the clients that I've worked with and I was talking one, I'm thinking one from last year. And a lot of cannabis use, it was cannabis induced psychosis. And then when the idea was like explored about whether or not this person would feel comfortable stopping the first thing they thought about was, yeah, but I would have to change all of my friends. Right? And similarly, when I think about recovery now, a lot of my own recovery is grounded and the people that I know that are sober and who are doing very similar work to me. So you can-- I love that saying, the only thing that you have to change is everything. Yeah. Yeah. Is that one thing? Yeah, just that one thing. That one everything. Yeah, absolutely. And earlier too, I was thinking about going back to the cup analogy. We might as well just call this the cup episode. Just the cup--[INTERPOSING VOICES] That can go so many ways.- Yeah.- Oh my God.(laughing)- I think it wouldn't have, but now it will. So now I'm sorry.- I'm sorry.- And I totally forgot what I was gonna say.(laughing)- It's all that it was gonna happen.- It was gonna happen.- Oh, I was thinking about equity.- Mm.- Right, and how you're taking on equity, I mean, you didn't use that word, but I was thinking about, like this has to do with equity, right? So the other side of that is like, because you're talking about like a person's ability to handle stress, right? And if someone, okay, so there's that part, right? The other side of that, when we're thinking about recovery or any kind of material success, right? There's also an equity that happens there, right? Because different people are starting at different spots, right? Like if you have all the resources in the world, it's gonna be very easy for you to kind of like maybe step into an institution of higher learning, right? Or it might be easier for you to like find therapy or treatment, right? And so I think the kind of subtext of this is also, I'm thinking about like the intersection of like poverty and identity, yeah, going back to ideas of minority stress.- Yeah, absolutely. Here's the thing, you know, the only person that can really give you an accurate measure of success is you because you're the only one that knows, you know, the steps that you've taken. I always tell my clients, just being here, It means that you're already stronger than you even think, because you've made it in the door, or you've turned on the computer, or you've sent me back a text, like that is right, so that is a success. And I think, especially in society, success has to be like this big wow. Like you got the big job, or you know, you won the lottery. Like it has to be like a big thing to be like, look everyone, I'm successful. You know, it has to be the nice car and the nice job and the nice suit and the nice this. you wake up today? Yes, success. Did you get out of bed? Yes, success. There are a million things that can happen in every single day that would feel like if I didn't do this, you know, and I failed. And I have all sorts of thoughts about that because a slip is in a fall and in a fall, you can get back up. So even that idea of failure for me, I'm like, no. It's a slip, it's a fall. Do you want to get back up? Okay, then that's what we do. But success has to be self-defined. Because if someone else is defining success for you, not only is that giving up power of your space of like, you know, look at it, I did this thing, isn't this great? And they're like, no, you have to do this thing to be successful. No. So define your own success. Celebrate the small things. Because every inch makes a foot, every foot makes a yard, and after yards make a mile. And we're so caught up in society to look at, you know, the big touchdown.(laughs) Well, you know, the goal, the checkered flag, that we don't have, you don't realize that, if you hadn't even gone one inch out of, you know, the race track or something, I'm so sporty, guys, dressed up.- It's okay.- So sporty, everyone.- Yeah, yeah.- But if you haven't even, you know, made it out the gate, you haven't even, you know, shot the ball, or you haven't even swung the bat, like, that's a success. All of those, my new things, are successes. So, I mean, that's a really long answer to.- No, that's a perfect answer to it.- That's true, 'cause it's like, the thing that I constantly have to remind myself to look at where I was, to compare myself to where I was, so that like I'm measuring me based on me. Because if I look at what other people are doing, I'm missing the mark.- Yeah.- Yeah, I forgot again. There was something, there was something, what was it, the last thing you said?- Oh, I forgot too.- That's fine, let's move on.- Okay. - Let's be present.- Let's be present.- We are present.- Yes.(laughing)- I have a question.- You are a present. You are both a patient. Yes Jordan- Just kidding.- I already, that's our producer.- Awesome, so with everything that you're talking about, right, and I think that people are working on this especially in recovery slowly and surely, when they finally get to a place where they do yield success.- Yes.- Where do we go from here?- Maintenance is the hardest part, because if you're jumping for the brass ring, it's like, now that I got it, what do I do with it? And I think it's important to understand that we make these kind of micro goals for ourselves in our life, and knowing that being able to just be present, like being present, being able to kind of connect to your own space of humanity, being able to connect with your own space of self. Those are successes. So there are times, by a lot of kind of metrics, I'm a little bit, I swear, it's not. But I'm successful. You would say that looking at my resume, I would look successful. But there are some days where I have to tell myself, you got this. You got this. And if you can make it through the day, it's been a success. And so I think we have to reconceptualize what success means because it's not just like the end of the road and fireworks. If you've reached it, that means that you have opportunities for new goals and different goals. Yeah. I think opens the door for educating yourself on something you're interested in. Absolutely. Yeah. Earlier before the episode started, I was actually talking Billy Lemon, our executive director, when we were talking about the owning of success and how that can be difficult. That's certainly something, I mean, even in the way you brought it up like a humble brag, but it's like, but there's--- No, it wasn't a humble brag.- Yeah, I know it did.- You know what I mean, but there's an ownership there. You know that I think for folks who may not come from a background where that was either expected or talked about or what have you, it can be very hard to own a success to internalize that. I'm wondering if you had any thoughts about that. I think, you know, and actually that was something that I was talking about earlier. You know, I was having a discussion of like, Imposter Syndrome, and what is that?- Oh, where is that? - And what is that?- Yeah, yeah. - And what is that? Sometimes, and then I can only speak for myself, but, you know, growing up in spaces where if I would walk into a space, I was the only one that looked like me. I was the only one who identified like me. Then I began to think, well, should I be in this room? And so now I have to think, well, where did it come, you know, my parents never told me I shouldn't be, should say, you know, kick ass, take names. And I'm like, yes, but then I get into these spaces and I'm like, should I? Why am I getting the thought that I shouldn't be here? And then I had to fight against that. And I think when we're looking at these spaces, we have to realize that, you know, We belong in any space that we're in. You know, we don't need permission to be able to exist. We don't need permission to feel accomplished. You know, and the minute that we give other people that power to say to you, you're not accomplished enough. You're not good enough. You're not this enough. You're not that enough. We give them that power. And so I work on being able to claim that space and say, you know what, even if I am, the only one that looks like me, things like me, you know, identifies like me. I'm here. And so me being here hopefully has another person coming in with me. And then we can bring more. And then there's more. And then we take it over. Sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm sorry. You take a moment. Are you trying to get us banned? No, no, no. I'm sorry. I was just going on a-- no, but I think-- You felt it. I felt it. I think that we need to remind ourselves that we know more than we think we know. Yeah, we're more capable than we think we are and we deserve more than we think we do. Yeah, and if we're able to remember that Then it helps us be in spaces where even if other people don't think we belong we are able to own that space of ourselves I love that so much. I have no follow up to that I'm gonna think about that later So you know, we're gonna start landing the plane here. But before we do that, I'm wondering what's next for you are? It's been yeah, it's my tray table up. Yeah, exactly. It's amazing how fast yeah, what's we start? Yeah? So we'll have to have you come back So yeah, so what's next for you any exciting projects anything that you want to share with our listeners? I I will always shout out my school Pacific Oaks College. We are located in Pasadena, Southern California.- Oh, lovely.- But we do have our online programs. So we have our Marriage and Family Therapy program. We also have a school of education, a school of human development. So if thinking about, you know, I think formal education is something that I would be even interested in looking at. I went to Pacific Oaks and I think I turned out okay. I think I turned out great. See, this is owning it. I turned out great. So I'm always encouraged folks that if they have any questions, you can look at PacificOaks.com. EDU or is it ED, PacificOaks.edu? And it'll show you all of our programs. There might be some videos of me in there. It's so weird watching me, but there you go. But yeah, I really, really do appreciate the two of you having me here. It's been fun.- Yeah, that's wonderful.- I'm Dr. Eugenia, this has been absolutely amazing. I'm so glad you said yes.- Yes.- And thank you again.- Yeah.- So the Castro Country Club is a safe and sober community center for all people and a refuge for the LGBTQ Recovery Community.- We provide programs and services that help change lives by supporting personal growth.- And our vision is to reduce the suffering of addiction by connecting people to community opportunity and support.- You can find more information, including all the ways to contact us at www.castrocountryclub.org/podcast.- And please find us everywhere you listen to podcasts, including our YouTube channel. And also every Monday we have new episodes, so get excited.- Yeah.- Or don't get excited, but still listen.- Yeah.(upbeat music)(upbeat music)[ [END]