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The 4 Agreements and Sobriety: Don't Make Assumptions 🏳️‍🌈 A Queer Recovery Podcast 🎙️

The Castro Country Club Season 8 Episode 10

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The Four Agreements Series:  Don't Make Assumptions is our third of four podcasts where we reflect on the teachings of Don Miguel Ruiz's book The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom.  

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 🏳️‍🌈 Join Anthony & LouiLou for a new episode every Monday.  We record live from The Castro Country Club in San Francisco.

 🏳️‍🌈 We strive to create a brave space where we engage in topics of recovery, where there are no outside issues.

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Welcome, you are at the CCC.
Where there are no outside issues, my name is Anthony Hammond,
I'm an addict in an alcoholic,
and other bows on the bus, and I care about you.
And I'm Louis Lou, my pronouns are he and him,
and I'm recovery for custom-ethan alcohol,
and I am always in search of balance.
Powerful!
Yes, in each week we strive to foster a brave space
where we can engage in conversations,
centered around topics of recovery.
And our intention is to hold an inspire better spaces
for more people in recovery by tackling issues
sometimes used to separate us.
But before we do that, please make sure that you like, share, and rate this episode.
Rate, share, subscribe, tell your friends about us.
Exactly. Do what you got to do.
You know what you have to do.
You've been listening for a while.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
You know, we have no one to blame for the introduction being this long.
Oh, there it goes. There it goes.
And now the disclaimer, the thoughts and opinions expressed on that, the CCC are
the one we do not represent anyone but ourselves.
In other words, we're just a couple of friends behind a mic here to entertain you.
And of course, everything we talk about is for general information purposes.
- Only. - Absolutely.
- Absolutely.
- Don't leave.
- Lewis, how are you?
- I am good.
You know, honestly, it's like this has been
of these weeks have been, you know,
just trying to go through everything
with as much grace as I can.
I think I have a tendency to be really
and pathic when it comes to people that care about.
I have a lot of people that I love
who are experiencing those things.
And it's giving me, putting me in a place of gratitude
that I've worked through.
- Look at me wrong, I have moments where I slip back and two,
but I think my purpose is to kind of be calm
and support people through.
How are you doing?
- I'm doing really good.
So I secured a postdoc.
I accepted an offer that I'm very excited about.
It was at my first choice.
- Absolutely.
- Well, where is it?
Or you had to keep the secret.
- Yeah, I don't wanna say, yeah, yeah, yeah.
'Cause I don't, well, 'cause you know,
the podcast is the podcast,
I don't know that I can affiliate them with the podcast.
- Okay, well, we'll do a little bit.
- Okay, well, congratulations.
- I'm very excited.
- I'll share this much.
It is one of the top five universities in the world.
- For--
- Okay, let's play a game.
It's like, we're gonna give us a bunch of clues.
- Yeah, it's a wonderful university.
There are leaders in behavioral science and psychiatry.
And I'm very excited and I'm very grateful that they--
- Is it in California?
- It isn't.
(laughing)
Okay.
- Well that could be a couple schools.
- I know, I'm gonna get you guys there.
I'm gonna get you guys there.
- But I'm very excited.
I absolutely fell in love with everyone I interviewed with.
I'm gonna be in there.
Oh, I was gonna say the names of the programs.
So I'm really grateful because they only accept
one person for their dual diagnosis track.
- Nice, lovely.
- Yeah.
- Look at how special you are.
- I feel very special.
- Exactly.
- I mean, I could not be more grateful.
I'd be studying and working among people
whose work I followed for a really long time.
Yeah, I mean, I'm just overjoyed.
like surrounded by people who are like leaders in addiction.
- Like admissions.
- I yay.
Well, people who've committed their lives
to studying addiction and finding, you know,
suitable treatments and what I love the most about
the program overall is that it takes like
all social factors into account when conceptualizing cases
and to say that differently, it's like they're thinking about,
(laughing)
yeah, I mean to say that differently, you know,
They're thinking about the whole person,
and that's one of the things that was really striking to me
throughout the interviews,
was that everyone I spoke to was undeniably brilliant
and undeniably connected and aware
and an authority on evidence-based treatment,
but they were also able to talk about the full human
and the full human experience
and all the different intersectionally identity,
and I was like, "Oh my God, I want to be here so bad."
(laughing)
So I'm really grateful. Thank you for asking.
Right on. We're good. I'm glad.
Oh my God. It's like so much has happened. I know.
I love. Okay. So we're we're very very
we are very constantly mentioning that or whatever.
But I was I was looking at I was looking at a clip on TikTok or
whatever. And I don't know if you remember and I'm speaking
about Beyonce and winning the Grammy and the Grammy for
Contributions. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I saw a clip of her
performance with the Dixie Chicks or the two or the Chicks now at the
see the change your name yeah what are they now the Chicks oh yeah just
Chicks they take the Dixie part out yeah yeah but they performed at the
CMAs and people that was where it all started where folks she she wasn't
really welcomed by a lot of the country music scene and so somebody was
saying you know that was beyond say villain origin story because she then
and left there and said, "I'm gonna show you guys,"
did her research like she does, like she's apt to do,
and created in my mind, because I absolutely love that album.
Created an amazing album that did deserve
to win even though they're like,
"You deserve to win, you deserve to win."
And then to win best country album,
I'm all, that is pretty amazing.
And the children are up in arms, of course.
- Hey, Doc, it's not a country, it's not a country,
But what they're not understanding is that Alam is exactly
about what they're complaining about.
She's telling a story and really kind of
reminding people of the history of that genre.
And the best thing that can happen
after the smoke settles and everything,
more musicians will see, you know what,
you don't have to stay, sandwich in.
You can be creative, you're a creative.
Like genre, genre, whatever, it's like race being a construct.
John was a construct, you know?
There's so, yeah, anyway.
I, I, I didn't know.
And it's, I've just been tickled pink,
along with the fuck, fuck around and find out phase of like,
oh my god, yeah, I,
well, you know what's interesting?
It's like, okay, so you have individuals who during,
during the election, they made a decision for themselves
that they could not support a candidate who, you know,
because the policy is supported genocide and you can respect that, you know, but then they have to take it a step
further and say, and constantly I was seeing videos saying, you know, if you support her, then you are this.
If you do this, then you wear this or whatever. And we are going to do everything we can to make sure she doesn't
get elected. This is clear. A lot of people don't understand our system. It is unfortunate. You know, there's only two choices, but that is the nature of what it is.
And so individuals were making decisions because genocide was important.
It was important to psych and just because you were making a decision to vote for her,
doesn't mean that you, you know, it's not that black and white.
There are so many other things that needed to be addressed, but to hear folks say,
and we constantly heard it.
You know what?
We don't care.
Deal with it.
Whatever we're going to do, everything to make sure she's not in.
And now we have what we have and people on there and some of those people that were saying,
don't vote for no matter what, are wondering where the black people are.
And there's a lot of black people saying, you know, we're taking a break because we told you.
And as I said, we're telling you so, but it's like, we told you, we told you what would happen.
And now we're stepping back.
And I made a video and I was just like,
the thing is it's like we just have lost trust.
Because you prop our black and brown bodies up when you need us.
And then you, for lack of a better word, shit all over us.
And now they want us to come back and be a part of the process.
And I heard people saying, "Where's Kamala now?"
Kamala Harris is a private citizen right now.
And she gets to participate as much or as little
in this process is what but I'm almost certain she's going to participate a lot more than some people.
Yeah. So I'm sorry I got a little. No, no, no, no. It fired me up, you know.
Yeah, I mean I hear I won't say too much about it. I mean this is the most that I've said.
Like I have made it a point. I made it a point and I think that we've talked about this.
I mean it was a quote from that a daughter had said like was it Angela Bassett.
Angela Davis was saying it's like when you know when I was saying it's like I don't talk about things because I don't feel like I have enough information
And she said that's not a good enough reason. Yeah, yeah, and you know, it's like I
I stepped back because I
Didn't know enough but it's not because I didn't want to talk about it
But because it's like I didn't want to step on anybody's toes like I really feel like you know, that's what it's about
I
For me if you if you were someone who decided that you weren't gonna vote that's the only time I have the problem
But but making a vote making a decision you you at least participate in the process
Yeah, other than that if like if you decided to keep your vote away
Then you don't get to participate in this conversation right now maybe later. Yeah, and now you know now is like a
It's an important time for people to take care of themselves. Oh, absolutely. Yeah
Is a healing and it's and it's a reminder to that this is fresh
So it's not going to it's not gonna all of a sudden
Yeah, this is gonna take some time. Yeah, we're just a few weeks in yes, exactly
Geez, okay, so it's transition. Yes, all right, so we're in the middle of our series on the four agreements
So if you're just trying it in the timing and if you're just tuning into this episode the four agreements is a book written by Don
Miguel Ruiz. There you go again with that. I'm just gonna look side at tech. So this book has been a
game changer for a lot of people in recovery in queer spaces and it's a book about just trying
to move through the world with with more peace and so so far we've covered the first two agreements
we've talked about be impeccable with your word which is all about using your words to build rather
than destroy and then we've also talked about don't take anything personally.
Yeah, don't take anything personally which helps us remember that other people's actions
are not about who?
Us.
Yeah, absolutely.
And then today we're going to be talking, talking.
Today we're going to be talking about the third agreement which is we might not be the
one that it causes the most unnecessary, which actually, sorry, what I want to say is
it might cause the most unnecessary harm which is don't make assumptions.
- Oh God.
- Everything that I was just writing about
side into people's assumptions about why folks do,
what they do.
- Yeah, yeah, exactly.
- Yeah, I mean, yes, and,
but making assumptions is human nature.
- That was cool.
- We do it all the time without realizing it.
And the problem is is that it leads us to create assumptions,
assumptions that lead to misunderstandings.
- Oh, absolutely.
- And straight up suffering.
- How many times have you had a fucking conversation
with somebody else without them participating?
because in your own, you know exactly, yeah, right.
I don't know what I'm gonna say.
- Right, right.
So why do we make assumptions?
Why do you think we make assumptions?
- Well, I feel like we bring with us experience
and whether or not I think with that experience,
sometimes we kind of lock people into a certain...
- Yeah.
- Like, so if I have an experience
with you or someone who reminds me of you.
Of course, I may have trauma around it,
maybe not the extreme trauma.
- I know, yeah. - Trauma around it.
So I'm thinking, this is how it happened last time.
So why am I gonna put myself,
I'm just going to, for me, I don't know about you,
but I've always, and I'm trying to get better with this,
but I've always kind of, I don't like surprises like that.
- Yeah. - I don't,
I want security and so I've always like,
- Yeah.
- Play the tape out in my head,
not in a healthy way, obviously.
But yeah, do you know who I'm getting at?
- I do know, yeah.
I mean, what you're describing are,
like assumptions are protective.
- Yeah, no, exactly.
- You know, there are brains like to make shortcuts,
and that's so that--
- Especially, especially when it comes to reaching out
to someone you might be attracted to.
- Yeah.
- Like I'm all, I,
because we don't like dealing with rejection.
- Right, so assumptions help us kind of like fill in the gaps
so that we don't have to do so much guesswork.
But what's interesting about making an assumption is that assumptions tend to be based on fears rather than reality.
Right, would you agree?
Yes, absolutely.
So we assume because we don't want to be vulnerable and ask for clarity.
Oh, God.
Okay.
Asking for clarity when you want to make it.
Yeah, because clarity when somebody tells you, although the worst, what I will say is like,
I absolutely hate it.
I've had this experience in the past.
There was this guy who was really into a long time ago when it was around, I want to say,
2019-1992,000.
Okay.
I was so attracted to him.
I ended up getting a job just because he was working at the place and stopped.
But I mentioned to him, I told him that I was interested.
I was very clear about it and he was not able to be clear about if he was interested in
me or not.
It was one of those things where, you know, I do know.
And so, nowadays, I'd rather you tell me the words exactly so that there's no kind of
doubt or no kind of no slither of hope.
I don't want any doors to be left open.
No cracks in your, because it's like that's what I'm doing.
There's hope.
Yeah.
I think like, I love that you're bringing up that example, because I feel like making assumptions
happen a lot in relationships.
So even if you're like, you can be with like a long term partner and make assumptions,
right?
Or you can make assumptions about like people you see on the street or like you can make
assumptions about a text message that you receive.
Oh right.
And that's a big one.
Yeah.
That's a big one because it's like you can't, I can't tell what your tone is.
And I've had it happen more often and I don't do this anymore.
But I've had it happen more often where I joke or I'm sarcastic with someone who I don't
have that relationship with and then they read the wrong way.
Like, I have close friends who know me and know how I am and so those are the only times
now that I will, like, especially on text.
So I'm not a big fan of texting.
My thing is like, texting for me is great.
Like, hey, I'm running late.
But it's like, there's some people there so good at like, like, yeah, I can't do that.
I'm a kind of a long text person.
- No, and I appreciate it.
I get the information and I'm able to,
but usually I'll be texting with somebody
and they have a whole novel in my, I have a few words.
- Yeah.
- Okay, right.
Yeah, whatever, bitch.
- Whoa.
(laughing)
I think in recovery spaces, especially if someone
is new in a recovery space,
is assuming people are judging you or like.
- Oh yeah.
- Yeah, assuming people are judging you
or assuming people don't wanna help you
or assuming that you're a burden to other people.
- I always tell people, you know what?
So yeah, they are judging you.
What, what are we gonna do?
Because it's like, we're powerless over that.
- Right.
- Like, that's something that's human nature.
- That takes a long time to get to this.
- Yeah, that's something that's exactly it.
- That takes a long time to get to this.
- And for me, it's like, I'm always like,
I wanna add a little levity to it
because it is serious business.
- Yeah.
- I don't wanna dismiss that, you know,
what a person is feeling, but I also want to say,
it's true, they probably are.
But what if they aren't?
Because I think the reality is, most of the time,
we're in our own world.
Yeah.
I used to, when I first, before I understood that
Crystal meth was affecting my psychic--
Yeah, yeah.
--and making me a little paranoid, I used to look up,
and I would see somebody, and they'd be looking at me
just the same-- right time.
And probably not even looking at me looking this way.
- But I would jump to conclusions
that they're talking shit about me.
(laughing)
- And so I think about that as an extreme case,
but that's how it is.
It's like, I'm in my own world.
I look up for just a second
and we happen to make eye contact
and you think I'm talking shit about you.
You think that I give a shit about you.
Or you think whatever.
And the reality is I just look up
and I'm a bobblehead and whatever.
- Yeah, I mean, a lot of things here, right?
So I wanna go back to the assumption
that the part about like being into someone.
And it's like, there's this idea,
I think like for example, when it comes
to like saber romantic relationships we're dating,
oh, they're not into me because of X, right?
Like and I think like the easy one would be like,
oh, they're not into me, like they're not attracted to me.
and then assumptions made about what that means
or like why they're not attracted to you.
- Absolutely.
- A jump to conclusions.
- Yeah, yeah. - It's 'cause I'm back.
- Yeah.
- Nonsense like that.
- I mean, it could be that, right?
- It could be, it could be that.
- And not to, yeah, and not to,
and but here's the thing what I'm trying to get at here
is the assumptions that are,
the assumptions that are made
and treat it like fact, but let me explain.
So let's just, let's say it's race for example.
Well, they're not into me because I'm Latino.
Right, let's say that, right.
And then I can make an assumption
about what that means.
When it could just be actually, you know,
people's kind of ideas, like preferences, et cetera,
like that's informed by so many different variables, right?
And we can talk about like, you know,
what bodies got to be sexualized because of racism
and oppression.
We can have that conversation,
but we don't have to get wrapped up in committing
to one story about why something is happening
because we cannot know, right?
And that's like one of the biggest assumptions.
- And there's some arrogance in that too.
- Yeah, of course.
- I don't you like me, you should like me,
it's like I'm all witches and nonsense.
- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I feel, yeah, yeah.
And even like when relationships end, right?
Like assumptions about what that means, right?
There is this kind of like playing God,
this kind of like predicting the future.
Yeah, so that's what that reminds me of.
- When newcomers come in,
I don't know if you've experienced this,
but it's like we do this thing where we try to love you
and support you and like we invite you to fellowship
or we invite you to have coffee
so we can talk to you and instantly you think,
you're trying to get my answer.
- You're trying to get my answer.
- Well, because it's like, you know,
it's what's happened before.
I'm only going on what I know.
And so, you see.
- Yeah, I mean, yeah, assumptions,
assumptions I would be willing to say.
- I usually do this thing when I first initially
start working with a sponsor, I will sit down
and I make it clear, you know, I'm not your banker,
I'm not this type of whatever,
and I also say I'm not going to try to sleep with you.
Very clearly, as I'm trying to sleep with them.
(laughing)
- Oh my God.
- I don't do that, that is not cute.
- What I was gonna say is that I think
assumptions are generally made from the past.
you know, it's like when we allow ghost to inform like what we see in the present.
And there's like a, I like what you said that there's something about it that's kind of like
egocentric. Yeah. I see that.
You know, that it's like this assumption about, you know, here's an example.
I hadn't met this guy who I thought was like absolutely beautiful.
And he, like I later learned,
like, things he's incredibly unattractive
and all this other stuff.
And I was like, oh my God, really?
Like this is--
- This is slap mochaos.
- What are you talking about?
You're beautiful.
So there's this like assumption that we know,
like how people see us all the time with this idea
that we can like control how people see us.
And we just can't.
- No, not at all.
- We absolutely cannot.
And assumptions.
Yeah, I think they hurt relationships.
- Absolutely, I think it's--
Number one, I think I try to operate from a place
that it's unfair for me to assume that I know
what somebody's gonna say and not give them
an opportunity to show to me.
Like, it's kind of like when we are at the place
where we need to come out to the people that we love
and we assume that they might respond
in a way that is not positive or whatever.
And sometimes they do and sometimes they surprise us.
Like, I feel like usually it's the ones,
I was pretty fortunate, I don't know about you,
but it was pretty fortunate.
I didn't have anybody turn away
or make me feel less than because I finally,
you know, it's like we were waiting for you bitch.
(laughing)
I was looking for.
- Yeah.
(laughing)
Oh, I think I put this on wrong.
Yeah, that's, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I even had that recently,
I had this idea of how I would hear about this one particular postdoc, and I had this
like fantasy in my head and it didn't happen that way.
Who were you?
Yeah.
I just--
You were in a bubble bath.
No, I saw--
No, I saw-- well, it's so interesting because I saw myself driving to work, getting the
call while I was on the road, having a pullover.
I thought it would be this like specific person.
This bitch is dramatic.
Yeah.
I thought it was just a pullover and--
It's going to pullover and cry.
And then it's breaking to song.
But instead, I'm so sad.
Where were you at when you--
When I found out.
So it's interesting how I found out.
I was sitting at my desk.
No, I was at my desk.
And I saw an email come up with the school's emblem.
And I know it happens to be your screen.
It's now the screen's here with my phone.
I love it.
So I saw it come up.
And it said, Anthony, this is just a follow up email to--
so-and-so's phone call.
Let us know if you like accept the client
or wanna put us on hold or something like this
and I was like, "What the fuck?
Who called me?"
And so I looked at my phone and I saw that.
I had missed this call.
And so then I called him back without listening
to the voicemail and like we talked
and he was getting in his car and it was like,
and then even my reaction, I couldn't have predicted
how I reacted.
I like stumbled and I was like, "I'm overjoyed
but I don't know how to say that right now."
And yeah, so I had like this.
- That was real.
- Yeah, yeah.
And so, but here's, you know, here's,
I made all these assumptions about how it would happen.
Or, yeah, and I just feel like it's,
you know, here's what I wanna say,
is that I think assumptions,
like you were saying earlier,
like they help make us feel safe.
But sometimes, like--
- You said that.
I said something to that effect,
but you beveled it down,
you kind of glossed it over.
- It's shine and put a coat of shellac over it.
- It's a lot.
Well, because let's think about recovery, right?
So for many of us, it's like we,
we were, we went to hell and back.
Right, and so we were trying to survive
while we were drinking and using.
And so you get sober or you work on recovery
or whatever that looks like for you
and you're still thinking in a survival state.
- Yeah, you're still trying to protect yourself
from all the things that were happening before.
And that could predate your drinking, right?
It could be like family dynamics, you know what I mean?
But we--
- And the people, like the worst is that people that,
you were relied on for trust, for love or whatever,
was not showing up and doing that.
How can you not accept that?
- 100%, 100%.
And so, part of, I think,
I think kind of like the thing that I could tell the person
who was struggling, what I wish maybe someone would have told me
or maybe I don't even know if I could have heard it,
which is like, relax.
- Yeah, that's a tough one.
- Yeah, yeah, just relax.
You know, like, just stop fighting.
- I think the best bit of advice that I've got
is to surround myself with people that I trust.
- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- Yeah, if, 'cause it's gonna take a while
and maybe there are people that you gravitate towards
and then who allow you to just be.
- Well, that's what I was getting at.
It's like when I say relax, I don't mean like,
hey, knock it off, stuff feeling, having your feelings.
(laughing)
- I know 'cause relax can be fighting like this.
- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
What I mean is like, just be where you are.
Right, my sponsor, when I was like, years ago
in first summer coverage, she said to me,
and they were you trying to be like somewhere you're not.
Like, you literally just decided a few days ago
that you were gonna stop drinking and using.
Like why do you think that like, you know what I mean?
Like why are you, yeah, and she just said like,
just be where you are.
You know what I mean?
Like you're a couple days in, just be there.
- Yeah, that's another thing.
Okay, so some other assumptions that I've had to struggle with.
Like I remember, I used to, if you were ever
in any meetings with me, I always blamed my inability
to cry over the fact that I was taking this Alexa.
I was taking the like, and I had to press it and it had,
whatever, it turns out I'm just not a cryer.
But I was assuming that I needed to behave a certain way
to show the emotions that I needed to feel.
- But it's just speaking to my heart.
- Yes, the reality is, is that the whole time,
even though that I was feeling what I was feeling
was just, it was kind of like with grieving.
- Yes, it was.
- People, there's so many different ways to grieve
and sometimes it doesn't show up in sadness.
- Yeah, you are speaking to my heart.
Yeah, because that's something I've dealt with
at my whole life where people might think like,
well, you don't seem very warm or you don't seem
X, Y, and Z, and I'm like, number one,
you don't know me well enough.
- Get out my business.
(laughing)
- You don't know me well enough, like I do have feelings.
- Yes, that's right.
- Yeah, and they show up in different spaces
with different people, you know?
So you can't make assumptions about my internal experience.
Absolutely.
We can't about anyone actually.
And the thing too that I've been learning through this process, the podcast, through
connecting with folks and whatever, is not to make assumptions about what kind of trauma
people are going through.
Yeah.
I was talking to this woman, she had a dog that was really kind of jittery or whatever.
And I've made it a point and this has everything to do with the fact that I have people who
have dogs who are jittery.
I didn't go up to, like I usually ease into it.
And that's how I try to ease into like relationships.
Although I'm still struggling with the idea of consent,
but oh my God, no he's not.
- I know, I know.
- No he's not.
So let's talk a little bit about like,
how do we get out of making assumptions?
And I think one of the best ways to do that
is by asking instead of assuming, right?
Like a close mouth will not get fed.
- Yeah, like rather than just the thing like,
are you talking about him in my back?
(laughing)
- I think that was actually.
(laughing)
- Maybe that's not the best example, but.
- That's a start because when you're figuring stuff out,
when you're learning how to be better at something,
it's messy in the beginning.
- Yeah, you can.
- And I get all ghetto and come at you
with Switchblade and say,
"What did you say?"
I thought I heard you say something about me.
- Yeah, for everyone listening,
Lewis doesn't carry a Switchblade.
(laughing)
- I do, I carry it my way.
- Yeah, you might just say, hey, I wanna make sure
I understand this, can you clarify what you meant by X, Y, and Z?
- I love it.
- Yeah, you know, like, hey, when you said that,
like, did you mean X, Y, and Z?
- Or a really good one, like, that I struck it with is like,
you know the other day when I saw you,
you were a little short with me,
and I'm wondering where you going through something
because, and then maybe it had nothing to do with me,
but I was feeling some sort of way.
- Yeah, or even like,
I mean, you go about your life the way you wanna go about your life.
I was just thinking like,
- Well, 'cause I'm like, was I short?
Like I'm thinking like, if you were to,
- No, you know what I mean.
- No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
but I'm just saying like, if you were to say that to me,
I'm like, was I short with you?
And so I think, I don't know,
I don't know, like I got snagged on that.
I'm like, well, we're making an assumption
that someone was being short with us
when they could have maybe not.
- And you know, maybe, maybe,
maybe it's not that you were thinking--
- Or maybe we're thinking of ice fingers.
- Maybe it's not that you said,
I felt as though you were short with me
and that probably wasn't the situation.
- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- That probably wasn't the case
and I just wanted to make sure everything was okay.
- Yeah, and I think part of that too is like,
this is the hard part, which is
sitting with the discomfort of not feeling in the blanks.
- That's right.
- Because we might be making an assumption
to like help us process or deal with something.
One really actually we might be making it worse.
So like, learning how to like sit with being uncomfortable.
- I talked to my sponsor a lot about stuff
before I just go off in because sometimes it's just that.
It's that I need to be comfortable sitting with the McSpaces.
It's about me and where I was in that moment
and has nothing to do with the other person.
- Yeah, oh my God, Luis, we played a blood
on the clock tower yesterday.
- I'm sorry.
- I have a calzbo conference.
- I know, that's why I can love the whisper to you.
- Was that you?
- That was me.
- Did you hear me?
I was like, who was that?
- I know, you said that in GM,
I guess I can just slip down in there.
- Yeah, I'm sorry, you.
- You stupid.
- What did you say you're like, "This is boring."
- No, I said, I don't know what I said.
I'd say it was like--
- It was hilarious.
- No, but I just whispered something.
I don't remember what I said.
- So it was you.
So yeah, there was someone there
and this is my first time playing with them
and I did not like the way they played.
- Like not because the, like,
one of the things that makes it really difficult
about like playing a game like Blood on the Clock Tower
is that there are a lot of different rules.
There's a lot of stuff to keep track of.
- This is why you don't see me there.
Yeah, there's a, and this person just would like get into,
this person would just get into arguments with everyone
for no reason and I was like, oh man,
I can't like your name's game for me.
I think I'm bringing that up because there was a part of me,
you know what, I think I was making assumptions
on them like, oh he's behaving this way
because he's like self-centered and because he's--
- 'Cause he's ratchet.
- 'Cause he's ratchet.
- 'Cause he's ratchet.
'cause he wasn't really raised right.
- Do you get along with him outside of the game?
- No, no, outside of the game,
he kinda weirds me out actually.
- Okay, so it's like, he makes me uncomfortable.
- It might be your experience with him.
So it's like, he didn't have a chance.
- Yeah, I mean, he did say something that,
and let me be like real here.
So he does make me uncomfortable,
but it's because I've heard him say
some like really questionable things where I'm like,
"Oh, I don't know that."
But this is not, you know, we're not all there.
We're not the most healthy people.
- Not at all.
- But yeah, he said some things that were like,
I was like, that sounds illegal and also very questionable.
And like, why are you seeing that in front of him?
I'm so down.
I'm so down.
I'm like, I'm going to.
Yeah, anyway.
So, but yeah, I made all these assumptions, but there was a moment where he had shared
about his feeling incompetent at the game, but it was very brief and I was like, oh,
maybe that's what's happening here.
Like, maybe he's overcompensating and like, this is what it looks like.
And Anthony, you should have more empathy here.
And then he slipped right back into that.
- Absolutely.
- You had me for a minute.
- You had me for a minute until you started yalling at me.
So you're asking rather than assuming
and then learning how to sit with that discomfort.
- Exactly.
- That's like when you hear something
and it's not what you wanna hear, you need to.
- Yeah.
And sometimes sitting with discomfort,
and maybe all times, but you don't have to sit alone.
You know what I mean?
You can find somebody else to sit in that discomfort with.
- There's something, okay, so there's something about,
The more times you experience it,
when you sit with it or whatever,
the easier that it becomes because you,
you could sort of normalize things.
And every life's the brain's got a fault.
You know, it's always gonna be rosy, you know?
Yeah.
And it's not the end of the world.
I think that's the problem with us.
It's like, you and me?
No, I say-- - People in recovery.
- In recovery, like, you know what they say?
We don't know the difference between a bad day
or the end of the world.
- Yeah, girl.
- Yeah, so it's like, I'm all,
this is gonna pass.
just like happiness, everything passes.
- Yeah, so how about, you know,
'cause here's the other thing is like,
how do we respond to assumptions
that people make about us?
Right, especially like when you are in like LGBTQ+ spaces
or like recovery or mental health,
if you have mental health issues,
is like certain assumptions
that people may make about you.
- Well, I feel like this is where we can't buy them,
Like, what people think about me as none of my business.
'Cause I've had a lot of people,
you know, after we get to know each other,
say that I was probably not as warm or gippin.
- Yeah.
- And I take it in, you know, 'cause what I've been able
to do now, now that I have a little more time,
is use it to kind of work at modifying my behavior
sometimes because there are times where I am not so smiley or not so friendly or whatever
and I don't realize that I'm doing it and you know it's not that I need to change for
them but I want to change for me. Yeah yeah so. Yeah I mean and yes and and the other thing
is is that we don't have to you know when people make assumptions about you those are not
things you need to internalize and you can you can establish what boundary. Absolutely I'm
- Yeah, but when they say, "Well, I thought you were, yes."
And that was an end.
- Yeah.
- Well, you know what this reminds me of?
It was a conversation I had with a mutual friend
of ours a few years ago.
I think this is a good example of this, actually.
He was like, "Hey, can we talk?"
And we sat down to talk and he said,
"Can I tell you about this, Lewis?"
He was like, "Anthony, you have a way of making people
"feel like they're the center of your world."
And I'm like, "Wait, how are you speaking for other people?"
But what's really what he was saying is like
that I made him feel like he was the center of my world,
which, okay.
So.
- That was a beautiful thing, though.
- Well, yeah, I'm like, I listen, you know?
- I'm present, bitch.
- Yeah, I'm like, you never experienced that.
- Yeah, I'm present and I was like,
well, I'm glad you've had that experience with me.
And then he said, and you have a way of like,
just dropping people and I said, okay.
So and so, like, I can understand.
Like, I can, you know, listening to you,
I can understand why you've kind of connected
with the dots in the way that you have,
but that's not my experience.
- Yeah, exactly.
- And, yeah, that's not my experience.
That's not how I experience this relationship.
That's not how I function in the world.
Old me would have taken that on and thought,
like, oh my God, what did I do wrong?
Like, there's something, clearly I did something wrong
and I'm like, no, I know who I am.
And I know that that's not how I function.
So, fast forward, we were walking
and he returned back to it.
And I said to him,
I said that I can see why you connect the dots that you do,
but I'm reminding you that that is not my experience.
I'm not co-signing what you just said about me,
that I just drop people.
Like I'm not gonna do that, you know?
And that was like a boundary I had to set, right?
That same thing happens to individuals early on.
And then later on, I mean, because we have mutual friends
who disappear.
- Oh yeah.
- Really kind of in your life.
- Really kind of.
- And you love them and you love them
and they're like, where did they go?
- And early on I made it about me
and now I'm all, they're doing what they need to do.
You know how I combat that?
The time that I get this thing with you,
I'm grateful for it.
- That's right.
- Absolutely.
that, you know, I saw, yes, Lewis, like I saw this,
I think it was a TED Talk, but there was this woman,
brilliant, she was talking about like,
what makes having friends as an adult difficult,
and she said, well, there are three things
that we have to do.
I think I remember these three things.
One of the things is that she said,
we have to let people come and go.
Like, because that's just what adulthood feels like,
we have to people let people come and go.
We have to appreciate the time we have with people.
And we can't make assumptions about why people
are coming and going.
- Yeah, exactly.
- We can't take that stuff personally.
It's like, there are some people,
like my best friend, he lives in New York.
And I remember when he left, it was really hard for me.
Now he's like, he has this girlfriend,
and now he's really consumed by his relationship.
And it was really hard for me,
'cause he was such a big part of my life,
and he left, and I was like,
why aren't we texting all the time anymore?
And like, why aren't we?
And that was a part where I was like,
and then you have to let that go.
He's on the other side of the country.
He's in a relationship, and I'm in a relationship too.
And so the second I let that go,
I'm like, oh, I can actually just show up
for this relationship.
I can just be in the relationship
of what we have it.
So yes, absolutely.
Yeah, absolutely.
Just letting people come and go.
Yeah, and really it helped me because I realized
that some of my addictive personality
was I was putting it on relationships
'cause I don't spend time with a lot of people,
but when I spend time, I love people.
Like I love you. - I love you.
- I see you and I like spending time with you.
- Yeah, me too, yeah.
- But it would be that I was so used to,
oh, I would see you, this, this, this, and this or whatever,
and if that didn't happen, I would be like,
no, what's going on?
And now it's like, I also realized,
I like to go home and decompress.
- A lot of us do.
- And be around nobody.
And so why, I always say to myself,
Why wouldn't somebody else have their own rituals
or things that they do?
You know, and I get to respect that.
- Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, and letting go of assumptions
is another way of letting go of control, right?
'Cause that's what assumptions are.
Assumptions are about trying to control.
- Oh, so you're saying control.
- Yeah. - Control?
- Yeah. - Because I go to work.
That's, I'm in the process of working that.
- Yeah, because assumptions are about controlling.
And what happens when we stop doing that,
what happens when we let go.
And you know, there's also another way of thinking about it,
the power of curiosity.
So approaching people with questions
instead of like conclusion.
- No, absolutely.
- Yeah.
Yeah.
So we're about getting ready to land the plane.
- I know, wow.
- It's like this.
- Wow, we were just like endless.
- Yeah, we were just endless.
Yeah, you know what I was thinking about was like,
I don't have the script ready for how to go.
(laughing)
- So keep talking.
- We should, you know, it's so interesting
'cause we, you know, we have the script at the very top.
What you know what it is is because the last part,
the outro script, I think that's like the one that changed
or something like that.
So I was just thinking about how like it wasn't ready
and right now I'm just buying us time.
- Yeah.
- So the cash flow, exactly.
The cash flow country club is a safe and sober community center
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We provide programs and services that help change lives
by supporting personal growth.
>> And our vision is to reduce the suffering
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>> You can find more information
including all the ways to contact us at
www.castrocountryclub.org/podcast.
>> And look for new episodes every Monday.
>> Every Monday.
>> And absolutely, yeah, yeah, that.
(laughing)
- Yeah, we absolutely love you.
And I think this is the turbulence, we're like,
(mimics
- Always do your best.
- Always do your best.
- That's our next episode.
So stay tuned for our next episode on the last agreement,
which is always do your best.
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