Controversial Topics and Recovery: Race and Politics w/ Ana 🏳️‍🌈 A Queer Recovery Podcast 🎙️

Controversial topics and Recovery: Race and Politics
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Transcript

Welcome, you are at the CCC.
Where there are no outside issues, my name is Anthony, I'm an addict and an alcoholic,
another bozo on the bus, and I care about you.
Yes, and I'm Louilou, my pronouns are he and him and I am in and recovery for crystal
meth and alcohol and I'm always in search of balance.
Yes, in each week we strive to foster a brave space where we can engage in conversation,
centered around topics, a recovery.
And our intention is to hold an inspire better spaces for more people in recovery by tackling
issues sometimes used to separate us. Yes but before we do that please like share
comment and rate this episode. Rate the episode. Ta-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da.
Delete the comment. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. Yeah we are buying time because the
intro music is so long. It's a 12 inch mix. And other disclaimers, the thoughts and opinions
express on at the CCC are ours alone we do not represent anyone but ourselves
In other words, the information and all the other things we talk about are for general information purposes only.
In other words, we are just a couple of friends behind a mic here to entertain you.
And before we jump into anything, as a crew, we thought that because today is 9/11, we should take
a second to remember and honor the lives lost by brave individuals who risk everything to save others.
This day serves as a reminder of the resilience and strength that emerged in the face of immense tragedy
We hold space for those who are still impacted by the trauma and loss and we are reminded of the importance of unity compassion and kindness in our communities
so
RIP those folks that we lost 9/11 and
That's it. Any other thoughts?
No, no, I
I
Couldn't tap what you just said. I'm not going to tap it. Yeah
So how is everyone?
I am good. I'm good. I'm like on fire. I do this thing where I like
lately especially after Kamala joined the
The race and watching tic-tocs. Oh, let's talk about that. Watching people on the other side freak out
And so I had been looking forward to the debate and I was not disappointed
No
Not at all and so we have a guest here today. We do and her name is
Ana Maria Rivera.
[LAUGHTER]
She said that while playing the maracas.
[LAUGHTER]
My pronouns are she or daddy, depending on the time and day.
Oh, I love that.
What's your love language?
Touch and tacos.
That's right.
You heard it here.
Touch and tacos.
Absolutely.
I am-- were you done?
Yeah, Ana?
Yes.
- Uh, so I'm okay.
- I'm tired.
- No, no, no, no, no, no.
- It wasn't like the transition.
I was just saying--
- Well, normally it is because I'm in--
- I know, I know. - I remember the one show
where I'm all-- - It's called "hat."
- You know, it's not that you're the victim,
but you're somewhere between not the victim,
but the victim.
(laughing)
- Yeah, so I started my new role a couple of few weeks ago,
and I-- - He's got a job.
I have a job.
(audience cheering)
I'm in my pre-doctorate now.
And I love it.
I absolutely am in love with it.
I love the people I work with.
My clinical supervisors are brilliant.
The work is so, I mean, I couldn't be happier, you know?
- That makes sense.
- Yeah, I feel like a pig and shit.
- A pig and shit?
- Like a pig and shit.
- A pig and shit, huh?
- Oh, okay, guys.
- Riding, living.
- Yeah, like a pig and shit.
So I'm having a really good time
The training is really intense and it's all very fast paced,
but I love it.
The only bad part is that it's an hour commute for me,
which I'm still getting used to.
Like the last, so I've been three weeks in it.
It's been kind of, excuse me, training.
Other than that, I'm fine.
- Okay, well this is good to hear.
- Yeah, I just turned 40.
- I love this.
- I love this.
- I know, 40.
- This has been Virgo season.
- It has been Virgo season.
- Yes.
- It's hard to believe that I was 13 or 14 when you were born.
- Wow.
- You're 13 years older than me?
- I'm 14, like 14, like,
I'm actually 14 years older than you.
- 14 years older than me?
- Yeah, I'm 34.
- You're 54?
- Yes, you didn't know.
- Well, fantastic, no, I didn't.
- I know, you know, it's a lot of giving other people my grief.
(laughing)
- I was waiting for something like drink water,
- I'm a moisturizer.
(laughing)
So today's topic, so this month,
we're talking about controversial topics.
- Oh, cool.
- Everything from race and politics
and all those other things that make people argue
during things giving.
- Yeah, I think it's important to note too.
We titled this race and politics,
but we were gonna talk about everything.
- Yeah, we're gonna talk about everything.
Everything that's a little controversial.
- Kind of the way we do anyway,
and it's like we're gonna end it with a little whip cream
and cherry on the top.
- That's right.
- Well, I think that makes sense,
'cause I really do feel like politics
and race touch every part of my life.
- Yeah.
- And most people that I know, so.
- Absolutely.
You know what, actually, I don't know if I was in the room
or it was online or whatever the situation was,
but there was an individual who was talking about,
oh, actually it might have been in my drag family.
They were talking about drag,
and I don't like to be political and drag,
and I'm on honey, don't you understand?
Or drag is political?
- Drag is political, yeah, what?
- Did you put it on a wig and getting on stage?
I'm making the morning.
You know, just about everything.
There's politics and what I decide to wear today.
You know what it's like.
- Or, you know what, let's take in another step further.
If you belong to a marginalized group,
you are in a politicized body.
So whether you like it or not,
the politics are put on your body.
- And I'm glad you said that
'cause that's exactly what I was thinking.
I mean, I wake up trans, I wake up as an immigrant.
And so like, the needy existing is political.
- Yeah, let's go.
- I kind of like what we were talking about before,
if you feel like you can take a break
from thinking about this or talking about this,
privilege, that's right.
- Okay, that's okay.
Say that, let's say it again for the people in the back.
- Be the lehio.
-Privledge.
- Okay, well let's explain that a little bit more, right?
So, okay, okay, okay, now I'm excited.
So, my first thought is, for example,
okay, okay, okay, okay, I'll tell you about a story.
I gotta start.
working at I was working at this research and insights firm and everyone was
white and we were working with oh my god I don't know if that's a bugger or
if it's I love that we're always talking about his body part. I know I don't
even know I am like that. I don't know I am like that. So it's one thing to let
people get to know you but to get to know you. Yeah. I'm not sitting over here
like wiping my hand with my ass and putting it on you. Okay but it's a
- I'll listen, but I'm worried 'cause I feel like
that's where it's headed.
(laughing)
- You're all gonna start calling me Typhoid Tony.
- Oh my God.
I like that.
- Typhoid Tony.
Okay, so I was working at this research and insights firm
and I was getting ready to present to this big name client
and it was gonna be my first time doing it.
And she said the girl that I was working with,
she says to me, "Oh, Anthony, don't worry about it."
You know, if you fumble, it's fine, they're not gonna care.
Everyone here is very nice, bubble, bubble, bubble,
and I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
That's not the way that works, right?
Like, there's already so much happening, right?
It's like, I'm hyper aware of the fact
that I'm a man of color, I'm a gay man, I am some,
there were just all these other variables
and I was stepping into the space.
So even if what she was saying was true,
that doesn't change that like I have had experiences
in the past that would make me uncomfortable
in that situation. - Absolutely.
- Right, so on one end, it's like,
okay, sure, this could be a very great environment,
but that doesn't mean I don't have the experiences I have.
And for you to suggest that my reality is somehow different,
is privilege. - No, I have to.
- Right, it's like, because you don't have,
You don't live a life, or you don't have experiences
that could get you to see the way I see things.
Right, like that's a privilege.
Right, it's like walking into a store
and never feeling like you have to look over your shoulder
and someone's gonna be watching you.
That's a good idea.
- Oh God, yes, you know.
- Well, like at my job, tell the story
and then we should ask her some questions.
- Yeah.
- My job, I have to encourage people not to,
I was joking to say, when they go through shopping
with their own bag and they put things in the bag.
You know what I tell them?
Unfortunately because of the environment,
we have to be extra vigilant
and I would not want you to be stopped
or ask the question because,
like, and I shouldn't have to say that.
We have baskets and things there.
It's like, but I know for a fact,
I think I knew that coming out of the womb.
I was shot in my own bags.
- Right.
- I just don't do it.
I'm even carrying an empty one around
because somebody's gonna be like,
"What are you planning to do with that?"
- Right, right, yeah, that's fine.
- Right, or like recently, I think,
I don't know, what do you have in it?
Were you gonna say something?
- Well, no, I was just gonna say that, you know,
when I, when we are having the conversation of privilege,
even I have to, at times, kind of check myself
because even though I'm an immigrant and I'm trans,
I'm light-skinned.
And with light-skinned comes privilege.
You know, I come from a family
where most of my siblings are way, way darker than me.
- And I've seen you abuse it.
- I've said, like I'm not saying.
(laughing)
- Wow, oh my goodness.
You know what, I'm out now.
But it's just, for me it's interesting
because I for the longest time didn't realize
what was going on around me
when little things would happen to my siblings
and not me and it wasn't until I grew older,
learned a few things, learned some language behind that
and realized that I have some privilege
and I think privilege, majority of the time
comes in the way the system is set up for everybody.
But then there's also smaller privileges, light skinned,
having an education.
I think that's a big one, especially
when you're talking about trans people of color.
Yeah.
So yeah.
And in response to the--
we all have some privilege, because as a cis male,
even as a black cis male, as black gay cis male,
I have privilege.
I always, when I'm talking to somebody
about this idea of privilege,
I always kind of liken it to like,
if I don't have to take it into consideration,
then that's my privilege.
If I can walk through this day without thinking about it,
it's like, I can't turn the fact that I'm a black man.
- Yeah, I can maybe kind of,
I can maybe kind of not talk about the fact that I'm gay
and boot you up or whatever,
but as far as being a black man,
whenever I would have people tell me,
I don't see color, I'm all,
well you don't see me,
because every time I look in the mirror,
that's who I am.
And so it's like, yeah.
- So I have a working definition for privilege
just to kind of make it a little bit more concrete
for people who may be listening
and are unfamiliar with the idea.
So privilege refers to the unearned advantages
or benefits that individuals or groups possess
based on their membership and a dominent
or favored social category.
Right?
So these advantages can manifest in various forms,
such as race, gender, socioeconomic status,
sexual orientation, ability or education, privilege often operates in subtle ways, giving
those who possess it access to resources, opportunities or power that others may not
have simply due to their identity or background.
It exists in contrast to oppression or disadvantage and can shape experiences in ways that those
with privilege may not always be consciously aware of.
You know what I will say is like, okay, so, and not faulting anyone just because of frustration
everything, but there are some people who use the discussion about privilege as a weapon
or whatever, and it's made it so that certain other groups are the ones who really benefit
from certain privileges.
It's privileges become the N word for them.
Like you better not say it.
And I don't think there's anything wrong with having privilege.
It's not the having privilege that's a problem.
It's not acknowledging that you have the privilege in thinking that you've somehow gotten
what you've got just because you've worked hard.
And I would take it even a further step.
It's not acknowledging your advantage,
but also once realizing what your advantage is,
doing nothing, doing nothing, sitting by,
and letting whatever it is continue for others.
Do you know what I mean?
There's nothing worse than like, oh, I'm an ally.
I'm an ally, but I'm like, you only come out in support
once a year for this example for pride.
It's like all these corporations coming out.
Oh, I have this bag that's rainbow,
and it's like, you know, why aren't you giving money
to the shelters and the, you know.
- The day after pride.
- I know those corporations.
- Oh, I know.
- They put this stuff away.
- It's so ridiculous.
- You better not never talk about pride.
- Oh, I know.
It's so, so awful.
- I'm looking.
I'm looking.
- Anthony's fact checking us.
- Well, no, no, no.
(laughing)
It's motherfuckers.
No, I was, I came across this mean the other day,
But basically what I liked about it was that it was saying
that there's some people who walk around as though
the life that they have just came out of nowhere.
It's not because they had the resources.
It's not because they had parents
who helped them start a little ahead other people.
It's just this idea that because they are like inately capable or inately, right?
So this kind of, which is, which for people outside of that can be very infuriating.
I've been having that experience a lot recently where, you know, so I just started this pre-doc
and I'm surrounded by these people and like I don't have a car, right?
And I live in the T.L.
And I'm like here I am with all of these degrees.
And I've talked about this before, like if I got kicked out of my place, God forbid,
I'd be back in the projects because that's where my family is.
Right?
So like that is a reality.
There isn't a safety net for me.
And so here I am, all these degrees, I've worked really hard and even now, right?
Like there's still this like disparity between like what I have to do, for example, just
to get to work versus what other people have to do just to get to work.
Yeah.
Oh my God.
Have you seen the news?
- Okay, I feel like this is connected.
- It's so many.
- It has everything to do with affirmative action
and Asian students who brought the lawsuit
was because the whole idea was that
I think that there was a group of Asian students
who were complaining because they felt like
African-Americans were getting--
- Was this a Harvard, 'cause Harvard med school--
- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- This not the first time.
- And-- - Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- Because of the lawsuit, the affirmative action
was taken away.
And reports have shown that entrance for the African Americans
is still the same, but there's a bit of reduction
in the number of Asian students.
So basically, they kind of shot themselves in the foot.
Oh, interesting.
Interesting.
Were you going to say something on it?
And really, I think what--
OK, first, it speaks to the fact that the powers that
be-- whoever the powers that be is-- it's like,
you know, we've talked-- them, them.
You know, I can't define who them is, but any force that is really kind of working to
divide the groups and everything, their messaging is on point to get to have folks who have
been benefiting from this structure.
You know, trying to kind of make sense, even if it's just a band-a solution to policies
that are just so anti-POC, whatever.
But to really kind of get them to do their job.
That to me, that's brilliant.
There's no other word.
It's sorcery.
- I find that so interesting, because like you said,
they ended up shooting themselves in the foot.
And I think that also speaks on minority communities
coming for each other.
- Oh God, yeah.
- Do you know what I mean?
And it's like, they feel like you're taking something
away from them and it's like, no, we're all trying
to fight for something.
And we all need to work together,
'Cause I just find that so sad.
- No, it's terrible.
- So sad.
- There's so much here, and this is so rich.
I wrote that down like so.
- Well, what I love is that this conversation
took on its own light, like the whole,
even just the mention of privilege,
just really kind of sparked, like, ah, this is rich.
- Right, right, and I told you it was gonna happen.
I told you.
- Well, the thing is is that what I think often
gets conflated is someone--
- I'm not gonna live it when he uses big words.
- What I, my nipples are hard.
(laughing)
What I think, what I think people combine
that they don't necessarily always go together,
although I can understand what happens is like,
when we, when we group up race with socioeconomic status,
like sometimes we pair those things together,
Because there are some correlations between them.
I bring that up to say that we've talked about this
before about how there are more similarities socioeconomically
between the races.
Oh, absolutely.
Right, for sure.
Then people outside of it.
And so for example, one group that I think
gets left outside of conversations a lot
are like poor white people.
And we talked about this is why Trump--
Trump and his people, they said, hey, we're
we're gonna make them feel special.
And that's why.
- Right.
- And I think that's why they're biting.
- Right, and so my point, my point being,
my point there is that
Losa's economic status has a lot of,
okay, oh my god, there's so much happening in my head.
It's all going, so, okay.
- Breathe, so breathe.
- Yes.
- Okay, so, so when you're poor,
there are a lot of fucked up things that happen.
Your health outcomes are really poor,
your mental health outcomes are really poor,
your quality of life is really poor, right?
And that's something that affects people across all races.
- Absolutely.
- Right.
And that, I think, is where there could be
a lot more solidarity, but we don't have it, right?
And part of that, I think, is because of the way
like political agents use race to kind of distinguish,
like to separate us, right?
Like even the idea behind like the model minority.
- Oh yeah, oh yeah.
- Right.
I just wanted to throw those things out there.
- Cool beans.
- Cool beans.
(laughing)
There's just like so much,
and I feel like I'm not doing it, doing it justice,
but there's just so many different things there.
- I have a lot of opponents there.
- How often, yeah for sure.
- Okay, so a few years back, I was at a conference
that I was held in Palm Springs,
and we were at breakfast or lunch or whatever
the situation was we're all eating.
And the conversation took a turn that I didn't expect
when we started to talk about race.
We started to talk about it.
And what I noticed is that all of the individuals
around the table slowly but truly like,
you could, it's almost like clockwork,
you see them shut down.
Yeah.
And excuse themselves.
And it was not lost on me and I was thinking,
it's like, oh my god, if we're talking about something
that you value or you think is important,
then let's talk about it.
But as soon as the conversation went one way
because when I start, when I start,
it's kind of like when I start up.
The train has left the station.
Don't get me started because I'm going to talk about it.
- But I find that so sad that people start shutting down.
I mean, I feel like race and politics.
For me at least in my households,
it's one of those things that I feel like
depending on how you're coming at the situation,
you can talk about anything.
Like even as a child, I found it odd
that you can really have those conversations
around, you know, grace, politics, money, and sex.
- Well, it informs us.
It's like, if I'm paying attention to that,
I mean, I'm being patient with those folks
who aren't ready for those conversations,
but it's also good information.
It's telling me, you know, I need to surround myself
with people, folks who are not afraid
to have those conversations because
there's still some learning that I wanna do.
And I can't do it if I'm not able to have these conversations.
That's why I love the podcast because I feel like
before the podcast, there was a void
and having these deep conversations,
especially after the Country Club was remodeled
because the format of the Country Club
before it had this living room space,
it felt more like a living room
and we would spend lots of time here
just having conversation, just going here,
there and everywhere.
And now it feels, it's still lovely,
but it feels more like a cafe or whatever.
There's, it's very few opportunities for us to kind of gather
around and just have these conversations.
- To some degree, yes.
- To some degree, yes.
- That's clinical.
- The exact, this clinical.
- The podcast is served as well.
- And then I just quickly wanted to go back and talk about,
you know, a privilege, 'cause I think, yes,
something we can talk a lot about.
For me, one of the things that I am very grateful for,
and it's weird to find privilege in it,
but for me it holds true.
A lot of trans-Latinas that come from other countries,
they're Latin American countries,
aren't lucky to get the education.
I was fortunate to get an education
because of being in foster care.
And that allowed me to be able to have the job
that I have today.
And to this day we'll go out of my way
to bring in support my sisters and brothers
and refer them and help them get an education
because I know that I am so lucky
to have what little education I have.
And I just wanted to say that before I forget
'cause I'm very, you know.
- Yeah, well you reminded me of something.
So we were talking about like privilege.
And what I love that I've heard about this is like,
It's when you use privilege or your access
to lift other people up, right?
It's not, right?
Like that is the proper use of privilege
or at least I think is like the best use of it.
- No, I agree.
- That's how you're a genuine ally.
- Or at least like an effort.
- I love, it used to bug me,
like I would hear people say,
especially a lot of the millennials or whatever they say,
you know, you can't just call yourself an ally.
You have to be kind of invited into.
- And so it bugged me
at first, but then I realized that's right,
because just because I say I'm an ally,
does mean I'm an ally.
- Very true.
Like, I mean, like, really, 'cause it's like,
I mean, if I'm saying I'm an ally,
and I'm still behaving in a destructive way
towards the folks that I'm supposed to be an ally too.
- And the biggest example for me that comes from
what you just said is Caitlin Jenner.
- Ah, yeah.
- I remember when Caitlin Jenner transitioned,
and all of a sudden I had all my nonqueer wife and-
- She's an ally.
- And talking about, oh my God, now you have someone
to look up to, now you have someone that gets you,
and I literally like froze because I was just like,
in my mind, how dumb can you be?
We have nothing in common other than something,
you know, not trivial, but something is just
the way we present ourselves to the world,
the way we live our lives.
But other than that, I will never have access to
even a quarter of what that woman has.
Do you know what I mean?
and she's still to this day endorsing policies
and endorsing people that for the community
that doesn't have those privileges.
- And correct me if I'm wrong in saying this
'cause this is where it makes it hard
to have conversations, but I feel like she's tapping
into the male privilege too, that--
- Oh for sure, for sure.
- And most trans women don't get to do that.
- Yep.
- Say more about that, what do you mean?
- Well no, she, okay, first off,
She has affluence.
Mm-hmm.
She still has, she's still like even in her transition,
she still has access to spaces that some people
would never have.
Like, and a lot of it's because of her politics.
Like, you know, they may be talking about her,
or whatever, but she still has access to those spaces.
And let's be honest, a lot of the people
that she's supporting a lot of the conservatives,
yes, they use the right pronouns,
but I'm pretty sure they're still talking about her
behind her back as a white man with influence.
- 'Cause she's saying everything that they want to hear,
like she's complaining about trans people in sports,
bathrooms, all that stuff.
She's saying it and making it,
she's tampering and making the conversation easier
for more palatable for them.
- Of course.
(laughing)
- Oh God, I'm so mad I could spit on Anthony.
That's, that's, that's, that's, that's,
That's for you since you like to talk about body fluids.
- It's so funny.
I was just looking at--
- I know Anthony's fact check, you know,
as I love it.
- No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
I was just looking at you and see what you're seeing.
- Pictures of--
- What is she--
- Like, you and Jenner.
(laughing)
- Oh my God, it's like--
- She'd be looking crazy.
- I'm sure you don't even, you know,
do a search on my internet because I don't need
to turn into my algorithm.
- Oh yeah.
- You know, I know.
It's like, it's terrible because once you do that,
one search, all of a sudden--
- Oh yeah.
It's gonna be across everything and all of a sudden,
it's like when I have to explain myself to God,
there gonna be like, why were you looking at a picture?
- Okay, I'm a sinner.
- Jenner.
(laughing)
- Yeah, I do not need that.
Nope, I'm good.
- You know what I was just thinking of is like,
there are all these like in talking about like race
and politics and that there are all these ways
of like having the conversation and for me,
like I feel like I'm already planning on walking away
from this feeling like, oh my God,
there was like so much we could have sat
so much that we, right, like the points that we could have made.
And I think the feeling of overwhelm is coming from the fact that like it is so loaded.
Like when we talk about race, right?
Like I'm sure everyone at this table right now, if the topic was how many times a day
are you reminded of like your race or your socioeconomic class, right?
Like that by itself could be a topic.
Yeah, that by itself could be a topic, you know.
And I think one of the things, I think it's called minority fatigue, but there's this idea,
I think it was by this scholar, last name is Steel from Stanford.
>> Shelby Stale?
>> No, please don't.
- Please don't.
- Please do not talk about Shelley still.
No, I forgot his, oh gosh.
- Last name is steel.
He was the finger behind stereotype threat.
- Yeah.
- But so there's another idea has to do with fatigue, right?
And it's like the fatigue of being an marginalized body.
- I mean, I definitely do feel like half the time
I'm exhausted from just being me.
That's what you're talking about.
- Exactly, but I feel like that's where, you know,
privilege comes in because I don't have the luxury
of putting myself away.
- Claude Steel, yeah, yeah, Claude Steel, I haven't,
yeah, Claude Steel.
- The term was coined by the researchers Claude Steel
and Joshua.
- Aaronson, yeah, yeah.
- Look, I'm pulling the Anthony, I'm still
unfamiliar with the most yet.
But yeah, there's fatigue, right?
It's like, just for example,
well obviously if you're making less and minimum wage,
even if you are making me on my wage, right?
It's like, what's your sleep like?
Are you even able to sleep?
Do you have to have two jobs, right?
Do you have to, like how does that influence
how other people see you and what you do, right?
If you're like a young gay boy or girl
or a trans kid and you're nine years old
and you're surrounded by, like that's exhausting,
you know, or having to like,
code switch or having to explain yourself
or having to--
you're in a scenario or situation where you're the only.
Yeah.
So all of a sudden they think that you're going to be
representative of.
Right.
Right.
Right.
Right.
Right.
Or this idea that like, oh, girl, it's just in your head.
It's not really happening.
Oh, yeah.
Go ahead.
So what you just said, it's really hard for me not to bring up
something that just happened at work.
That's right.
I had a situation that I generally feel was
transphobic with another coworker and to not trigger myself, I would just fast forward
a little bit, but I had a conversation with our HR representative who is a white gay
man.
And I kid you not, I was in that conversation and I know that he was in his little heart
coming from such a good place.
But then he brought the person and he was saying, oh well, I work with this person all the
time and there's never a problem.
- And immediately in my mind, I just looked at him
and it took every ounce of me to not just scream
at him privilege.
I'm like, you are a white man, educated white man,
who is very monotone, you're not flamboyant,
you're not loud, all things that I am, right?
And now you're entering gaslighting territory.
Oh, no, no, maybe it's just, no, something else.
- It's a validity.
- And it's like, no, you're not hearing me.
These are my, and I have to break it down for him.
I'm like, okay, so I hear what you're seeing,
but it doesn't change how I feel.
There's this coworker who, for no other reason,
I'm not her favorite person, and that's what she said to me.
And I find it so interesting because,
I think if you're LGBT or a person of color,
you know that tone, you know that look.
I was straight up told I am not her favorite person,
and then the way she looked at me from head to toe, right?
And this is someone who I've worked with for months
and other than good morning and goodbye,
I don't talk to this person.
You don't know me.
You know nothing of me other than what you hear
in passing by and I don't know.
It was hard to describe to my HR representative
who's gay and white because he may be able to empathize
to some degree because he's a gay man, but he fully can't and then just to dismiss my
feelings.
Absolutely.
I literally broke my heart, but unfortunately I'm used to it.
I'm used to, you know, even my experiences when I started coming to the Castro Country Club,
I had to educate, you know, gay white men on how to properly talk to not just a woman
but a trans woman, you know, and to a trans woman of color.
the misogyny, the racism, like not in joking or satire,
but like true, you know.
And I just, but even in the joking,
I've had to kind of educate myself
and I've had to change how I show up and that
because before I would think,
oh yeah, get away with this, I get away with this
because I'm gay, no, I can't.
I can't because if I want somebody to treat me
a certain way, then I have to be open to hearing other people
and giving them that same respect.
- And that's true, especially that like immediately takes me
to when I had to have a conversation
with a few gay men that felt it was appropriate
to touch my breasts.
Because other cis women would let them do that.
And it was like, first of all, you don't know me.
- Yeah.
- I literally just met you a week ago.
(laughing)
And you're making all these assumptions.
- I touched it, but I'm gay, it's like I'm also--
- Exactly, and that's what their escape would be.
I'm a gay man and it doesn't matter.
I'm like, it does matter.
I specifically came to gay CMA to get away
from being seen as a thing, from being touched.
And I specifically came to feel safe here.
And unfortunately, I had to do a lot of educating
to feel safe in this environment.
- That's a privilege that we all have.
I'm sorry, I'll at least say,
I put, not taking into consideration
that others show up with trauma.
That they have trauma.
- Oh yeah.
- That's a good way of putting it.
- Exactly, not taking that into consideration
because it's like, I'm just acting on how I know
how to act and not thinking that maybe,
maybe like when I rush at somebody
or when I go give somebody her or I'm not saying that I do it,
but you know what I'm saying?
It's like not thinking about things
before you take action.
- Yeah, right.
Well, in your reminding me of like the misogyny,
misogyny and sexism within the gay communities,
specifically around like gay men, right?
Like, you know, we look at the Castro for example,
which at one time was, I wouldn't say dominated by lesbians,
but there were many more lesbians here.
And now there aren't any, I mean, like lesbians come
to the Castro, but there aren't any designated spaces.
- They're not listening to gather after it.
- Yeah, of course.
Yeah, yeah, so we have stuff like that, right?
Like why don't we have, and why is it that lesbians
are like relegated to one night
rather than having their own club in the area?
- They're smart.
- They don't go out all the time.
(laughing)
- Well, then you know the point.
And maybe that's like not the best thing.
(laughing)
Because they're saving their money.
- Exactly.
- They're trying to buy property in Gerber.
- Yeah.
- Good day.
- But yeah, you're reminding me,
there's also this great book,
it's called The Erotic Life of Racism
by Sharon P. Holland.
- Oh, that sounds like a good read.
Can you actually see the-- - The Erotic Life of Racism.
- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The Erotic Life of Racism.
And I went to-- - This is here,
it's got a bibliography.
- I went to this amazing talk at
Bolt law, you see Berkeley law years ago,
and it was called the erotic life of racism,
and they were talking about how racism,
for example, shows up on dating apps.
- Oh sure.
- Right, there's this great book, it's called Data Clism.
It was written by the three founders of O.K.Cupid,
and what they found was that racism rampant on O.K.Cupid.
- Don't get me started on O.K.Cupid.
- And then we also have like,
- Kind of O.K.Cupid.
- Yeah, yeah.
Or you know, on the dating apps,
how there's among man,
how white men are preferential,
and universal,
and then if you're a black man,
it's harder if you're a bottom,
and you're not a top.
So there are all these different things
around just being gay,
and just the way racism shows up in sexuality,
or within our relationships.
And for example, there's also the idea of the mean gay whites, right?
Like the mean gay white.
So gay white men who have like affluence or who came from like, you know,
were well-resourced not being able to understand like the play of a gay man who don't have the same
access, etc.
And then of course you have like the conversations around, you know, when you have a marginalized
group, sometimes that marginalized group is looking to put somebody else down.
- Oh yeah, oh yeah.
- Which we, I can't believe we have 10 minutes left.
- I know, exactly.
- This is crazy.
- It flew by so quick.
- Yeah.
- And it really was like, oh my god,
we still have some more time.
We're gonna, you know.
- Yeah, this is why I mean,
I feel like we're literally,
I just like, there's so many different things.
Like, I wish I wanna come back to all of these things
and like dig deeper.
- What did you wanna ask me some questions?
'Cause I know that earlier you had some questions
you wanted to ask me.
- I think that was Lewis.
- I know, well, no, it's like a good question to ask.
- I mean, I have questions.
- Oh, you mean from earlier?
- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but good.
- I'll ask you the middle one first.
It's like, what brought you to recovery?
- Well, one of the things that really brought me to recovery
was that I had reached a point
where I had tried everything.
And honestly, I was so miserable
that the only thing I could see for myself was death.
And again, I'm not a suicidal person,
but that's where I was at my last limit.
Do you know what I mean?
I'm 41 and I had been trying to get sober since I was 20.
I found meth really quickly, alcohol really quickly,
and within two years I knew I had a problem.
I knew that I didn't drink and use like other people.
And I had been trying off and on
through behavior modification at the time to get sober.
And all that was left was to simply try something different.
I had been coming to the club when it was a drop in center
and hang out with people.
And I eventually got so comfortable with the people here
that I think when I was actually ready
to start something new and try something new,
I knew where to come.
- Yeah, right on.
- I love the Castor Country Club.
And it wasn't that hard for me to be like,
this place is amazing.
I need to go there and try it their way.
And honestly, 10 years later,
you know, my life is so much different
what it was emotionally like I wanna live.
- Oh nice. - And for me,
like that's a big jump from wanting to die.
I see nothing, no existence for myself
to being a person where all I wanna do is live
and get to tomorrow and try something new
and you know, hang out with someone and be with someone.
- Mm-hmm.
- I love it.
Thank you for answering that.
- Yeah.
- So the question that I wanted to ask earlier,
well, I actually like that we're running off with this
is like, give it, we've talked about race, we've talked.
One our social economics status,
what are the experiences that you have both had
that had made you feel hopeful
or that made you feel like, okay, this is good.
I like the direction this is moving in.
Be it interpersonally or like maybe things you've witnessed.
- Well, I mean, excuse me.
I feel like I would need you to elaborate a little more
And that's just because of my own mental health.
- Yeah, yeah I can.
- I'm a little, you know, just convobulated and crazy
by the chair. - Yeah, yeah.
- But if I'm understanding correctly,
I mean, I feel like just coming in
to not just the Calcester Country Club,
but in the last 10 years,
the miracles that I've seen, the transformation
that I have seen, not just in my own life,
but in the life of others.
Like I've literally seen people come as broken as I was,
if not more broken.
And literally, you know, after months, like all of a sudden
they have a job, they have housing.
Like those are things that I didn't think
when I was using that I could ever have access to.
And so like I get to see the miracle
every morning when I wake up within myself,
but I actively work hard to see the miracles
not just in myself, but others and in my surroundings.
Just the fact that like I get to wake up in a warm bed,
You know, and I get to shower.
Like I have like people try to keep it cute
and I have no qualms about being real
and I think it's one of the things that people sometimes
are like, you're a little too honest
and I'm like, and I'm like, well you need to understand
that like I, for me, am either honest or I'm a liar, right?
And there's no in between for me.
I would lie about everything my age, my race
because when I was out on the streets
and I was doing sex work, you know,
it was either play up the Latino role
so I could, you know, be someone's fetish
or, you know, if I just wanted to make some money
and, you know, to some degree, not be sitting there
pretending to have an accent
and, you know, this person's my white savior,
I would pretend that I'm white, you know?
And so, did I answer your question?
- Yeah, I think so.
Really what I was thinking about, not really,
what I was thinking about are those moments when maybe I can lead by example,
here, like give you an example, but give you an example.
Like one of my favorite experiences that I had, I was, it was my third year
in grad school and there was this site that I was applying to and there was this
trans woman who was at the site before me.
And when she learned that and choose a white trans woman and what so when she
learned that I was applying. She was like, "Girl, let me help you." And she looked at my cover
letter. She helped me prepare for the interview. And I was like, "So that was one of the first
experiences where I was like, 'Oh shit!' Right? Here's this person. She could have kept all of that
stuff away from me. She didn't know me from a can of paint. She knew me, but she didn't know me.
I have a moment now. You know what I mean? Yeah. So that to me was I felt like, here was this
this person who had all this privilege,
the privilege of access,
but also just kind of like new the internal workings
of this place and like put her hand out.
- Before you, let me share.
So right after George Floyd,
I didn't realize that I was starting to feel
something, I was going through it,
having that experience of work.
I just dismissed it as the shit that I go through at,
The owner of my job called me into the office,
didn't know what was going on,
and she asked me if I wanted to take a few days off,
because she knew that it was a lot.
And it's situations like that, I remember, yeah.
We're folks, like she paid attention.
It's like, and anytime I have doubt,
it's like I know that she's an ally.
No, because it was needed.
I didn't know it, but I needed it,
because it was so much.
It was like, I had almost reached my boiling point.
I probably would have ended up in a turret somewhere doing
and speakable things.
Where are we going to say on that?
So just from your example, it really brings this memory
that I have.
And I think it was after my first year,
clean and sober, going into my second year.
And it's the reason why I have the job that I have today.
I, like I said, I'm very lucky to have
the little bit of education that I have,
but I was so broken and such a mess
and I didn't really know how to do my application,
how to do a cover letter,
and there's this person in the rooms that to this day,
I mean, other than being a woman, in an addict,
we don't really have a lot of things in common on paper.
She is definitely of privilege, Caucasian,
(laughs)
And I'm from the mountains of Kakazoi.
From the mountains of Kakazoi for sure.
And also, I want to just add the context of me being
who I am, a trans woman, and where I come from,
like, cis women were never my friends.
They were my friends until the man looked at me
and showed interest, and then all of a sudden,
I was the enemy.
And so to have this woman out of nowhere be like,
hey, I have these skills.
and I'm gonna help you, you know, whatever you need.
And because she took the time, she showed love.
Like I still, it's one of those moments in my recovery
that really give me hope.
And yeah, I mean, to this day, I think I would go to,
you know, heaven and back to help her in any way,
not just because she gave me something, you know,
because she gave me something that's also like,
what's the word?
- Not tangible.
- Not tangible, right?
- That's pretty good.
- She showed me grace, she showed me love.
And it came from all these things that like,
I've never thought in a thousand years
I would get it from.
You know, a white woman of privilege.
Like they, like no.
I never thought that this individual would go out of her way
the way she did to make sure that, you know,
this transexual got a job.
(laughing)
And to this day, I think about her every time I go to work,
every now and then, just the fact that I've been at my job
for almost nine years.
Like that's amazing.
- Oh, she can keep a job.
- Oh, now she can, yeah, yeah.
I mean, it also helps that I don't sleep with the boss.
- Okay, so I had a habit of doing that.
And I don't recommend it, especially because they're never honest.
They're not going through a divorce.
No matter what he tells you, they're not going through a divorce.
Do do it.
we should rely on the claim.
And then we'll go to you like podcast exclusive content.
Yes, so the Castro Country Club is a safe and sober community center for all people
and the refuse for the LGBTQ Recovery Community.
We provide programs and services that help people change their lives by supporting personal
growth.
Our vision is to reduce the suffering of addiction by connecting people to community
opportunity and support.
You can find more information including all the ways to contact us at www.castrocountry.com
.org/podcast.
Did I say four W's?
-Yes, and tune in every Wednesday at APM Pacific Standard Time.
We go live on our Castro Country Club Facebook and YouTube channels.
-Find us wherever you listen to podcast.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
-Okay, we're still recording.
How was that for you, Ana?
That was fun.
- Yeah.
- I forget these lights and I'm burning up.
Like I'm sweating like a whore in church.
- Yeah, we're all having a whore in church.
- A whore in having our personal side.
- Who believes in a vengeful God, you know?
I'm glad that that's not my truth today,
but I am sweating my testicles, antisticles, I can't.
- I am so stupid.
I am so tired.
- Oh, but I forget, I just want to say
- What?
- That I love seeing you.
Like we have been seeing you almost everywhere.
- Oh my God, me too, Anna, that makes my fucking game.
- Like it's hard 'cause you're having to go to work
and so am I 'cause I'm usually running late.
- Yeah.
- And I just want you to know how much joy it gives me
to see you in just the brief moments
that you're like, hey, Anna, I did it.
- Yeah, yeah.
- It brings me so much joy.
- Anna, honestly, same here.
Same here, totally changes my day.
It just feels really like, yeah,
It's the same here.
Totally changes my day.
You're just so warm, you're so loving,
and it feels like it's turned into this routine, oh, mo.
- Oh yeah, I'm like, am I gonna see him this morning?
I'm like, yes.
I'm in the universe, bring him into my life.
- I just wanna recommend one of those mornings
you guys get a room.
- Wow, wow, I was just love that.
- I'm not ready for kids.
- Oh my God.
- Oh my God.
- I'm gonna answer that question.
- Thank you for saying that that's very sweet.
- No, it really does.
I mean, my life and schedule has really changed a lot
and I think on top of that,
the other thing that I wish,
I think there was a podcast on it,
but if not, it was like,
I think it was the mental health one
'cause mental health like plays such a part for me
in my every day.
- Oh, that's true.
- I guess because I don't look as just convobulated
as I feel inside, people think I'm okay
for the most part. - Yeah, that's a tough one.
- But people don't realize that like I get up early
in the mornings and literally for 30 minutes to an hour,
I have to talk myself to get out of bed.
Because yes, I take my meds,
but people don't really understand what,
like it is to live with mental health.
- Yeah.
- And on top of that, it's made worse by like,
oh my god, it's today the day that you know,
I'm gonna be, someone's gonna be transphobic.
Or is this the day someone's gonna like beat me up,
shoot me or you know, it's just that,
'cause now I live on 6th Street too.
And I'm just like, I have to literally put on layers
and layers and layers of armor just to leave my house
and I was talking to a friend recently
and I hadn't realized that I've been,
you know, using my tomboy-ness as like,
subconsciously as a way to kind of protect myself.
- Yeah.
Because this was a friend who has known me for many years and she was like,
"You were always pretty tomboyish, but lately there's other than when you're in drag,
there's hardly anything feminine attire."
And that was so not you.
And I had to like really sit and reflect on that.
And I'm like, "Why am I scared to wear a skirt or a dress?"
It's definitely not because I don't know that I'm trans.
I know I'm trans.
But it's really, I had to sit back and it's just, I'm subconsciously,
You will know unconsciously, like, so scared of what's going on right now, and it has been
happening for the last couple of years.
To walk out and be more of a target, because I do feel like I'm visibly trans, I'm visibly
myself, and just to add more stuff to that, it really scares me.
So seeing friends, seeing other friends.
I mean, I think that's a blessing that we all have, because I have more people that I see.
I was joking to say I don't like people, but they're people that I see, and I light up
when I see you guys.
I light up and that, that to me is just such a gift.
And it helps.
You know, like you're talking about the mental health
because it's like--
100%.
Yeah.
Knowing that.
And it's like one of the reasons
why we can have this conversation is
because it's not lost on me that I trust everybody
in this room.
Yeah.
And we talk about this being a brave space.
Meaning, because it requires us to be brave.
Because even though we don't have people directly,
We'll have people sign in and I mean,
I feel like I can talk about this
and not worry about somebody seeing me on this dream.
- Yeah.
- Yeah, so it's a blessing.
- I wanna say that for the longest time,
- Oh, if they were gonna go and say you're into fluids.
(laughing)
- I am in red and to the end.
- To the end of the fluid.
- I am in red so much.
- Oh my goodness.
- What's he has been down on his back pocket?
- Yeah, I'm peeing along my like right now.
- Wow.
- So what the fuck was I gonna say?
- Sorry, I love fluids.
(laughing)
- Okay, I used to, for the longest time,
wanted to be like quote unquote normal, right?
I'm like, I don't want all the mental health stuff
that I have going on.
I wish I wasn't an addict and an alcoholic.
I wish I came from a different family.
I wish things weren't so hard.
I wish I didn't write all that, all that, all that stuff.
And I think about people like you and people like Lewis.
And to me, it's like, oh my God, I'm so glad that I've had these experiences and I live
in the body that I live in because I get to have these relationships.
And that makes it all feel worth it.
And for the longest time, I remember, I wanted to be
these people who seemed like they were unfazed by anything.
And what I'm realizing is that my community
and my people are the other people who feel fucked up.
And that to me, I can live and breathe it there.
You know what I mean?
All the suicidal ideation in the world does not exist
when I'm like, you know what?
I'm just talking to my other crazy piece.
You know what I mean?
I'm being in community in that way.
that happened to me at year five where I stopped wanting someone else's life and I stopped
wanting to be normal because I especially for me I come from a sober family of service
and I have like genuinely believe at least for me that everything that I've gone through is
to benefit others right to help the other freaks and the other weirdos like today it's funny I
I wanted it to be normal and I would hate it
when people would call me weird and a freak.
And it's like, no, today I grab onto those
and find the pride and joy in those things.
Because I think that what makes us different
is actually what makes us better people.
- Yeah.
- Yeah, 100%.
- I do not want to be normal, living in the suburbs,
having missionaries sex.
- Not missionaries sex.
- You know, having missionaries sex, going to Starbucks
and going to Marshall's like, no, no, no, no, no, no.
I want to go to Mr. S.
and I wanna put on some mesh shorts.
And then I wanna go have cocktails, you know,
mocktails with my friends.
- Absolutely.
- While someone is swallowing next to me.
- Yeah, you know what I mean?
- Ah, changing clothes.
- Absolutely, absolutely.
- Like I was at my birthday party.
They're like, I felt like everyone there represented
like my life.
It was like every single fucking race was there.
Every single like, age was there.
You know what I mean?
Like you could not, what the highest praise
was a friend came up to me and said,
and then he, 'cause you know how sometimes
you can go to an event and you'd be like,
oh everyone here is, everyone here, right?
Like all they all looked the same or they all,
usually the case, right, right?
And like that wasn't at my party that wasn't
what was happening.
It's like you literally had everything.
There were street people, there were gay people,
there was women and there was men.
And it wasn't even like an off balance of women and men, right?
Like it was like, and--
and it's like you were doing a checklist.
- Yeah, and I wasn't.
I was like, no, these are just like the people
that like I love you know what?
And then I also like invited people
that are not like, but people aren't big fans of you know what I mean?
And I'm like, no, I love those weirdos too.
You know what I mean?
- I know, I was a fellow weirdo.
- I was making a list of them all.
The fuck.
- Yeah.
- I'm all, I need to see the invite before I come.
- Yeah.
- One thing for me is that like today I genuinely,
like this is gonna be interesting
because I'm running for grand Duchess, right?
- Oh, I've been having a bunch of kids.
- I've been saying that's okay.
Okay, she's running.
- And grandudges.
- It's so interesting because once I run for grandudges,
I was already told a bunch of people are gonna wanna
send you friend requests and you have to accept them
and da da da da da da.
And for me, that's gonna be a new avenue
because genuinely, if you are my friend on Facebook,
it's 'cause either I have had a conversation with you,
I either believe similar to what you believe.
- Absolutely.
and then to now all of a sudden have an influx of people
that potentially, yes, on paper, we kind of look like
we are gonna mesh, but as we've seen lately,
even friends that I've known for a while
with everything going on in politics right now,
I've had to de-french people because they're saying
crazy shit. - It's super important.
I mean, and I get this from Anthony,
and what he talks about is experience in social media.
I am constantly curating, it's like I'm constantly--
- Oh yeah.
- It's like my social media is a bonsai plan
and I'm constantly clipping and doing whatever
and there's absolutely nothing wrong in it.
I can still use it the way that I want to,
but I'm sorry, it's like,
if I wanna have certain conversations,
I wanna have them in person.
The worst is trying to,
like even trying to have a conversation with somebody online.
(laughs)
And knowing in your heart of hearts that
nothing's gonna come from this,
but still feeling like you can make a difference
and finding out that it's just a waste.
- I am just no longer, I don't care who you are.
If you feel that your life is more important than mine,
and you feel that I don't deserve the same rights
as you, that's it.
- Yeah, that's a non-secretar.
- Yeah, I'm done.
- I'm done.
- That's her.
- If you can't, if you really,
like I have friends that are openly Christian,
you know that our island--
- I like it.
- I'm like, "I'm not a monster."
(laughing)
- You know what I mean?
And it's funny 'cause when I have conversations with them,
when I first met them,
I came with my own baggage as a survivor of organized religion.
I like, oh, I don't know if I want to talk to you,
if I want to be your friend.
And what I've learned is that these are like,
I guess if anything, the true Christians
that you care about in the Bible,
because they're like, yeah, I believe in what I believe,
but I also don't feel like I have the right
to take anything away from you.
I feel like you still deserve the right to live
as who you are and be who you are.
And I'm like, that's as easy as it should be.
You know, all these Christians that are, you know,
praising and all about love, but, and but,
and it's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
- That's why I'm starting to really appreciate
the messaging that the Democrats are trying to do
when they're talking about abortion.
You know, if the change your value structure to know
that you don't want the government making decisions for you,
I mean, it's really important to help people understand.
Like I'm not telling you that this is whatever,
believe what you must, but it's gotta,
you gotta understand this.
Like it is so important that we don't have forces outside
of us saying you do not have autonomy over your body.
It's like, oh, yeah.
- I had to have a conversation with a particular person
that we know because he was like,
I'm tired of all this abortion talk.
It doesn't affect me and it doesn't really matter.
And I was like, I know that you're a man.
And that you're not worried about your body
and like producing children and all this other stuff.
But again, this other person should not have
to worry about those things either.
So whether you agree with it or not,
you should at least agree with the baseline
that they have the right to do whatever it is with their body.
And he followed up with some stupid comment
and then we went to do some friendly.
- And then you hit him.
- No, I'm not trying to go back to jail.
You know, get deported, I'm good.
- It's nine o'clock, so we need a,
- I know.
- We need to land the plane again.
- I was just getting good.
- I know.
- I'm so tired, I'm so, I'm so sleepy.
- Oh my god.
- Like I could sleep right now.
- I really think this coffee helped my triadown
'cause I'm like barely starting to feel it.
- The triadown?
- Yeah.
I can't believe you took Trazadone before coming on.
(laughing)
I thought about it once I said it
and I was like maybe I shouldn't have had,
but then I went and got coffee to see.
Okay, before we end,
so I'm on Trazadone too for sleep.
Mm-hmm.
And so normal prescription is 50 milligrams.
I can only take 25 milligrams
'cause that shit knocks me out
and it makes me groggy into the next day.
I take 60.
Bitch, I love friend he takes 150.
Damn.
(laughing)
Whoa, yeah, man, then we're like,
- I take it specifically.
- What little drool that we'll follow.
- For my bipolar.
- Oh, you tell us.
- I'm bipolar one.
So I run manic.
- I run manic or super manic, right?
And so literally, I like,
before I started taking meds,
like I would stay up until two, three,
just not being able to quiet my thoughts.
- Yeah.
- And so try it out and is what,
you know, gets a bitch to go to sleep.
- Oh, I love that.
Yeah, I mean, it knocks me the fuck out.
But the thing is that once it knocks me out,
it just takes a while.
Okay, well, we need to go the producers are like,
they're playing the music.
- He's got this off.
- He said shut the fuck up.
- I'm trying to get home.
- There's not a picture.
- There's not a call, I swear.
I gotta go.
(laughing)
(upbeat music)
I'mma chuse 'na Hell Chuse'
I'm like specify