Introduction to Controversial Topics 🏳️‍🌈 A Queer Recovery Podcast 🎙️

Introduction to Controversial topics and Recovery Monthly Series
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🏳️‍🌈 Join Anthony & LouiLou every Wednesday at 8pm PST for our podcast, broadcast live from The Castro Country Club in San Francisco.
🏳️‍🌈 We strive to create a brave space where we engage in topics of recovery, where there are no outside issues.
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Transcript

Welcome, you're at the CCC.
Where there are new outside issues, the music is so loud.
Where there are new outside issues, my name's Anthony M. and I'm an alcoholic, another
Bose on the bus, and I care about you.
Yes, and I'm Louilou.
My pronouns are he and him and I'm recovery for crystal meth and alcohol.
And yeah, and each weekend I'm always, see you must be.
I've been doing this for years.
I'm always in search of balance.
And each week we strive to foster a brave space where we can engage in conversation,
centered around topics of recovery.
And our intention is to hold an inspire better spaces for more people in recovery by tackling
issues sometimes used to separate us.
But before we do that, please like, share, and comment on this episode.
Comment, subscribe, and then rate the episode.
And as aunt, they put it only rated if it...
You have nice things to say.
And if you have not nice things to say, send us an email.
Yeah, and thank you.
To put our shit on Front Street.
- We did the people who come up and talk to us directly.
- Yeah, and now the disclaimer,
the thoughts and opinions expressed on at
the CCC are ours alone, we do not represent anyone
but ourselves, the topics, the information.
Everything we talk about is for general information purposes,
only in other words, we are just a couple of friends
behind a mic here to entertain you.
- Let's have a cake.
- Let's have a cake.
And yeah, thank you for people who like see us on the street
and say hi to us or send us emails.
Thank you so much.
We love that a whole lot.
- It's absolutely helpful.
Like, yeah, it's just really helpful,
'cause there's no way-- - Yeah, it's really helpful.
- There's no way, we get statistical numbers
and everything, but there, you know--
- It's just weird to know that people listen,
and then people say hi, that's really neat.
So thank you, yeah, thank you for listening,
and thank you for saying hi to us,
and thank you for sending us kind and sweet emails.
- Absolutely.
- Absolutely.
And how are you, Lewis?
- I'm good.
You know what, this has been a good week.
I mean, that's been really busy with work.
But yeah, other than that, it's been a good week.
How about you?
I've been really busy as you know.
I started a new thing.
Of course.
And I'm laughing for those listening.
I'm laughing because I showed up late to the studio.
And everyone was like, oh, where are you, Lee?
And I was like, guys, I have a job.
And everyone on the team has a job.
So everyone laughed at me.
I made a big deal.
because we're all working.
But I'm getting used to a new schedule,
which is what I'm trying to say.
I tried to wake up early to go to the gym,
and then I come back, and then I do all of that.
And it's just been hard, because sometimes I have
to move things around and waste up.
I'm not used to yet.
I appreciate that.
I absolutely do.
Yeah, you know what I mean?
Yeah, I got you.
But yeah, I love my new job.
I love my colleagues.
I love the work.
It's just really fast-paced.
That's cool.
Yeah, I know.
And yeah, okay.
- All right, well, I'm glad we got through that.
So we sound like, it kind of like low key sound
like we're like a married couple when we're fighting,
but we're trying not to let people know that we're fighting.
(laughing)
- I'm poking him out of the other table.
- So like we're working really hard to be nice
in front of people.
(laughing)
- Oh my God, it just had flashes.
- Oh no, no trigger.
- No, no, no.
- No, that was my parents, you know?
- Oh no.
- They loved each other deeply, but it's like,
when they did their fighting like that
or trying to kind of keep it together,
that was a struggle.
- Oh, so you had like two parents at home?
- Yes.
- I'm not seeing that in fun.
I didn't.
I didn't, that's why I was asking you.
- No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, exactly.
- Bitch, I wasn't.
(laughing)
- I was like, I had flashbacks to it, you know,
but yeah, no, my parents, they were together
I told my mom I passed.
- Mm.
Yeah.
- That's really sweet.
I was asking 'cause that's not my story.
I wasn't raised with two parents.
I was raised by my grandmother.
So I just don't know what that experience is like.
- No, okay.
- Yeah, yeah.
- Well, it just shows they're all ways to be a family.
- That's right.
- Yes, exactly.
- That's right.
Jordan, are you gonna say something?
Jordan is behind the mic on the other side of the--
- He's itching.
- On the--
- Is that a table?
- I need to say something.
I had three moms and a dad.
(laughing)
So should we introduce this month's topic?
- Let's do it.
- Yeah, so this month's topic is controversial topics
in recovery, so basically we'll talk about
all the things that a lot of people try to avoid
talking about like race and DEI and politics
as they relate to recovery, although like not even
as they relate to recovery, but in the way they show up
in the recovery spaces.
I think the idea is to talk about these things, but we bring our experiences, recovered people
to them.
And also, it's like, I think that, what was I going to say?
This kind of represents growth for us on the podcast.
Oh, it's the same word.
Well, because I was thinking, it's like, when we first started the podcast, when Bonnie
Violet and I started, the idea is that we definitely wanted to, for people to get to
know us.
And we wanted to eventually get to this place where we could talk about any and everything,
But in the beginning, we were more concerned with, really, that the topics be really kind
of recovery focused in that we stay there and that we're mindful.
And I think that as a result of us getting better at this, learning how to do what we're
doing in a way that, you know, because we're able to have different conversations and also
have it be, you know, stay true to what the podcast is supposed to be about.
Yeah, so.
Yeah, I agree with you.
What I was thinking about is how...
I remember when I first came on the show
and I first started on the show,
I felt like I played it safe for a really long time
and a lot of that, yeah, and a lot of that was just,
'cause I worked in mental health
and so I was thinking a lot about like,
what does this mean for my career
and what does this mean as a mental health professional?
- And you should, and that you should.
- Yeah, I think so, but I think it's also...
- I don't know, you get to make a choice, right?
About the kind of clinician you wanna be,
or the kind of person you wanna be.
And I think that part of that for me is like,
I think it's important for me to take a stance
on certain things and to have an opinion
and that I don't necessarily sacrifice those things
in order to...
- This is interesting.
- You're professional.
- This part of the conversation is interesting
because I'm thinking about it as it relates
to the two candidates.
- Oh sure.
because folks are criticizing Kamala Harris about not having interviews in blah, blah, blah,
this or whatever.
But we see what happens on the other side when you have somebody who is willing to talk
to, talk to reporters every time and not think about what they're going to say.
Like in my mind, I was thinking, you know what?
This is a person who is going to be representing a whole lot of people, a whole different types
and to not be, like to not be mindful, to be thoughtful, to just say what's off to
cuff, that to me, like when they say, what's presidential and what's not presidential,
like that's not.
You mean, so you're saying like what's not a president, like not having a thought
for like, I love it when I'm talking to people and they, they pause like, and they think
about what they're going to say and then they say it.
And I don't think that that, that's a sign of weakness or anything is, it's just, it's,
it's highlighting the fact that we're able to critically think.
Yeah, I think, well, I mean, I think what made,
I don't even know if I could say Trump was effective,
but I think the one thing that was refreshing for people,
at least you hear people who support him,
they'll talk about how he was this,
it was the first time they had a politician
or someone go up there who didn't sound
like all the other politicians, right?
So he was crass, and he was off the cuff,
and he was, you know what I mean?
So Dave should call them an honest liar.
- Yeah, so people found that refreshing
because it was the first time that they saw
politician behaving in that way.
And so in a lot of ways I feel like,
he's changed political discourse in that,
politics have to happen in a different way now.
But to your point, it's that we've gotten
to the other side where it's like, no, no, no, no, no,
we're tired of the things being chaotic.
We need to grow up at the table.
- Absolutely.
- It was such relief like after Biden won.
And it would have been anybody
that we have a bit of normalcy that we don't,
we're not constantly hearing about what somebody did.
Like if it's not tagged,
I'm just supposed to be doing,
I don't wanna hear about it.
- Yeah.
I'm personally, I'm just like tired
of constantly hearing about him in the news.
- You know, now.
- It's just like, oh my God.
Like, there's so many--
- It really is, it really is the way
the news media showing up.
The news media is not the news media of all.
And in that, it's all sensational and everything.
Like I look at the interview, like interview with Kamala
and Tim Walz.
And she asked that question about how Kamala felt
about Trump's comment about race.
And I'm like, you've been waiting for me to do this interview
and this is the question you have.
I'm all, yeah, okay, this is probably why I'm not doing
that interview, but it's all good.
- Yeah.
Gosh, yeah, and you know, we were talking
before we started, Aaron, we were talking about,
you were talking, you mentioned that,
Kamala has been receiving some criticism around her accent,
constantly changing, and we were talking about code switching
and how she very likely has been this person
who has had to do a lot of code switching.
And that's really interesting
'cause when Obama was in office,
he was criticized for the same thing.
- Absolutely.
- And you can find some footage of him
where he's in one, I think he was in Georgia
and he was speaking to a group of African-Americans
and his cadence was more Baptist churchy.
- Absolutely.
- Right, and then there were other instances,
but the code switching has been something
a lot of people of color have had to do people from different class backgrounds like
code switching has been it's a survival mechanism.
Absolutely.
And I feel like here is this strength that she has that she's had to develop over the over
her lifespan and it's being used against her which to me is veiled racism.
Oh absolutely it's extremely it's veiled.
I think what's interesting is like they're it's like they're playing this game of throw
the spaghetti up against the wall and see what sticks and nothing's sticking.
And so they're picking on things that normally, and a normal, healthy election, if there's
any such thing as a healthy election cycle, they wouldn't matter.
I mean, I found myself arguing with somebody on it, and says, "I just made the comment
it's about code switching."
They don't even want to acknowledge that code switching is coming from a place of trauma
because folks had to be a certain way in order to be accepted no matter how intelligent,
educated they were just like in this case now we have we have a candidate who is a
reality star who for all intents and purposes had it used his privilege to get
where he is and then we have someone who struggled and and is educated or
whatever but they are not treated the same way and so it's like and so hell
yes you've got a coach which in order to yeah yeah I mean we're talking about
a lot of stuff here. And I think in the way that ties into recovery spaces is that their
politics have been very disruptive and certain communities. I mean, you and I both know of
a person who has said very transphobic and racist things on Facebook. And you know,
this is someone that we have to see in a meeting sometimes.
or folks that you, like, I have had to stop being around,
shut people out because, like, they'll get behind the keyboard,
so get on and they'll say something.
And rather than, like, like we do here, like,
if I make a statement that is offensive
or that is just wrong or whatever,
if I'm not open to hearing that and maybe modifying
or changing and you have these individuals,
they'll get on and we'll double down.
They'll double down like one particular,
it's like someone who I was friendly or friend with,
we were in a situation at the theater,
I don't know if you were at the theater that time.
- Which theater?
- The which show was it?
- I'm trying to think of what movie we were waiting for
the movie to start.
- Okay.
- And there was a drunk woman in the audience
and there was a lot of kind of loudness or whatever.
And--
- I'm listening.
- One of the individuals there, he was there
with his partner who was older
and he ended up going on to Facebook.
And the way in which he complained about it,
it wasn't like there was a disruption in or whatever,
it was like I had an interaction with a woman of color
and just like, and I had five others this week
and he went in and announced and talked about it
and talked about it in a way where it was like,
he didn't let this be an isolated incident.
He indicted in my mind the whole race
And this is not the first time that it's done this.
- Oh gosh, yeah.
- And so it's like, I'm all, you really had to do that.
It's like this woman was drunk.
Anyone could have been in this.
This does not represent.
And what it brought up is like, look, you know what?
Like, I heard someone say like,
black people, we are the only one who are responsible,
have to be responsible for a whole race.
- Well, I was just gonna say that that I think,
I mean, it's, well, on the East Coast,
'cause I'm from the Northeast, right?
So I remember growing up and I felt that,
you know, there's a big Puerto Rican population.
And so I felt like I could not,
you know what, let me fast forward to graduate school.
When I was in graduate,
when my first year of graduate school,
I had, I was in a class and the instructor was a black woman.
And she pulled me aside at some point into her office
because at some point I was on my phone, I was texting.
But I was texting next to a white girl
who was also texting,
but I was the one who got called into her office.
And I remember feeling like there are so many different things
that are wrong with this situation.
And one of the things that I walked out from,
walked away from that encounter was,
and she made this clear to me.
She said, Anthony, whether right or wrong,
you're like one of two people of color in our class.
And so you're always gonna be,
you're like, we're always gonna see you, you know?
And so on one end, I felt like,
oh, she was actually helping me.
And on the other end, I felt like I was being singled out.
Right, and so to this idea that like,
sometimes I have felt like I can't be an individual.
Like sometimes I forget.
I'm like a person of color until I'm reminded
that I'm a person.
- Absolutely.
- You know, and I don't know where I was going with that
except to say that like, yeah, there's like pressure, right?
Like that I have to come to,
like I have to represent every single person
who I may or may not look like.
- Yeah, and to tie it to like recovery.
Like, so when I go into rooms,
when I go into rooms, especially after there,
like around the time you remember last,
or during the time with the George Floyd and everything.
Like obviously like we do 12 step, but when I go
and I need to share about something that is affecting me,
something that is causing me grief.
And if I bring something like that to a situation
where people cannot understand or relate,
like I have actively had to kind of like find sponsors
that I knew would understand,
'cause I had gotten to the point where I was so frustrated
with the gas lighting or someone not validating
because they didn't feel like it was their experience,
that I needed, I was just like,
I'm no longer interested in explaining the basics to you.
It's not my responsibility to explain the basics.
(laughs)
It's like, or to do the research for you.
And I think all too often,
and with my, my sponsors that are of color,
those are conversations that we've had.
You know, it's like, it's just a tough one.
Yeah, I hear that and I feel that.
I was also thinking about,
because were you the one who I was talking about,
talking to about the similarities between classes,
so basically, I think it was you or someone else
where I remember reading this article not too long ago
about how there are more similarities
between people of color and white people
and the lower rungs of class,
then there are between like poor white and rich whites.
- You may have been talking to me about that,
but I think my head exploded.
- Yeah.
- Well, because the takeaway of this article was that
if poor folks looked toward each other
and realized that they actually had all this stuff in common
and that political agents have used these differences
like race to kind of pin them against each other right.
'Cause as long as they're fighting each other,
they can't actually see what's happening.
And the machine's really effective at that.
Yeah, and it's really effective at that.
And then the other thing is is that when you're poor,
you're generally busy.
You know what I mean?
You have to have two jobs and you have--
there isn't a lot of room.
So you don't have-- sometimes there
isn't a lot of room to kind of be politically active
because you're too busy getting from one job
to the other while raising your kids
and trying to have a life.
So there's so many different things that impact a person's life.
And then add to that, if you're someone who struggles with addiction and is just trying
to stay sober.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Or add all the other intersectionalities.
Like you're gay.
You know what I mean?
Or maybe you have a disability or any number of things.
Did you want to say something, Jordy?
Yeah, I think it goes back to the idea of code switching.
We code switch in so many spaces, even in recovery rooms.
I, I don't know if I'm more with like a CMA group,
but I go into an AA meeting.
I have to code switch and how I act,
what I say, how I introduce myself, right?
So I think that is related.
And also how we come into not gay meetings either, right?
I have to feel like I have to switch an act
a certain way to fit in all the time.
- And the thing that's crazy about is like,
I figured out, it's like,
half the time people don't care.
- About what?
- I think they don't care,
but it is so ingrained in us that we,
We do it about how I show up.
Like I'm pretty sure that I shared on here
an experience that I had.
I went to a retreat in Los Altaos Hills
where I went to school, but this is after I'd moved to the city.
And my impression of all of the individuals who were at this retreat
that they were straight men.
And so from the beginning I was toning that down.
I wasn't talking about that part of me.
But then I went to lunch and I had the sapiphany,
And I realized I'm being robbed of the same kind of experience
that they're having because I'm holding back a part of me.
And when I came back from lunch, I,
all dramatically, like, like, Norma Desmond,
is like, I'm gazed, like, I'm a blah, blah, blah, blah.
And the folks were like, whatever.
And it really is that fucked up thing that we--
this is the messaging that we've been getting so long.
So we buy into it.
and it really requires a level of courage
to step out and be your authentic self all the time,
but there's a price that sometimes you pay.
- But that is a luxury of not afforded
to people who have had traumatic experiences, right?
So yeah, it may not have been an issue,
but for somebody who has had traumatic experiences
being gay bashed or, experiencing racism,
those people, people who are generally oppressed
cannot have their guard down
because it feels too dangerous to have their guard down.
- Oh yeah, exactly.
- And so it is very comforting
and it is very welcomed when that kind of thing happens
when you disclose to someone they're like,
"Grow Who Cares."
- Yeah, exactly.
- But that's a luxury.
- That's not always happening.
- Yeah, it doesn't always happen that way.
And I think the other thing is that it's also
like to Jordan's point about code switching
when you come into a meeting,
I think even as gay folks,
there are lesbians and trans folks
in our meetings and bisexuals,
but I think about--
- There's lions and tigers and bears.
- Lions and tigers and bis.
- And bives.
- And bives.
- But, but, you know,
like just a culture,
like there are all these cultures
within cultures, within cultures,
because we're gay men and then we are in the castle,
we're in a big city,
we're in a politically active city, right?
So they're all of these different things
and on top of that, like gay men,
we don't exist outside of ourselves, right?
I mean, there are other things that exist outside of us, right?
So,
- So there's all these things just constantly moving.
- You know, and then so sometimes it just feels like,
if you sit down and you think about,
and you kind of like hone the lens on it,
it can get really overwhelming.
- Oh, absolutely.
- You know?
- Absolutely, it's like, I think that,
like especially when you're not at a place,
like it's not lost in me, it's like,
it's taken a while for me to get to this place where,
you know what I say, I don't care.
I don't care where I'm gonna be unapologetically who I am,
you know, as radical as that is.
That's not who I was when I walked through the doors.
And so that kind of, it's challenging, all right?
What's the word?
It's another obstacle because, like you said earlier,
you were, I'm working on my recovery,
but I'm also trying to be my authentic self.
And not feeling like you, that's tough.
I need to trust, I need to trust this process completely.
And I don't feel like I can be my authentic self.
That's why I'm always encouraging.
Like, you know what, you know what I say, find a sponsor
or find somebody, and people that you trust, that tribe.
People are gonna let you just be who you are.
Flaws and all, I think it is so important
that this idea of forgiveness be a part of.
And when I talk about that, I'm like,
I'm not gonna be perfect.
I may make a mistake, mistake.
But if I'm around somebody who holds that against me
forever and doesn't allow me to make that mistake
and also the grow from it and it changed,
That's a person I don't want to be around.
I have made it a point to kind of like exercise
your demons, that's when I say,
I'm gonna love you from across the street
'cause I don't have anything for you right now.
- I feel that, gosh, I'm so overwhelmed.
- I know it's a lot, it's a lot.
- I'm so overwhelmed.
- It's a lot and we gotta close it
because it closed the Pandora's Box again.
- Yeah, I mean, we're talking about a lot of things here.
And then I think the other thing to remember too
was like that this is all historically situated, right?
Like, I'm thinking about like the LGBT community
and like civil rights.
And right, so I feel like the history is still there.
We still have people among us.
We have lesbians in our lives who
were there at the front lines when people were dying of HIV
and AIDS.
Like we have trans folks that are old enough to remember
when we had folks at Stonewall.
And so there's just so much.
And then we think about all of the different things
from health disparities to wealth disparities
that impact marginalized groups, especially those in recovery.
And then also acknowledging the fact
that a small percentage of people get sober.
Yeah, exactly.
Something else that I think that we probably,
if we're not careful, we'll miss talking about what we should.
Okay, so you and I, we have the perspective
of being put away in black.
I think you were saying you were putting away.
No, the POC experience.
Oh, good girl.
But a lot of times folks don't talk about the fact
that these issues that we're talking about,
they affect everybody.
Yep, they affect everybody.
Well, I think of, well, that's the thing is that,
the people that I think are left out
the conversation are poor weights.
Right?
That's a population that a lot of people don't talk about.
And I think that's because, again, political agents have, I mean, that's part of it.
And that's why Trump did so well.
Yeah, that's part of it.
I'm going to shine a light on you.
I'm going to let you go.
And the thing is, is that I grew up with, like, I have more in common with the white folks
to where my project that I was raised with in the projects,
then I do like people of color who came from money or have any.
- You probably don't watch Netflix,
but have you seen any of the stuff going around
about the movie's deliverance,
Glenn Close Bay's a character who,
and in "Family's in Color,"
she, that is a character that all of us know.
She plays like, she's a white woman who dates black man.
She was doing a sew-in and she got her eye-led at.
What's this called?
This is called Deliverance.
It's kind of a scary movie.
It's not the best movie, but Glenn Close.
She really grew herself into it.
They've been calling her Glynisha.
Oh, yes.
I came across.
Glenn J. Blod.
[LAUGHTER]
I came across a short today about that.
It's amazing because it's like--
She's wearing black and like gold chains.
Uh-huh, it's like, I'm all right now.
It's like, I'm all, she's reached a certain point
in her career to be not care.
Yeah, she's like, I'm ready for this role.
- Lee Daniels are almost gotten trouble
because he's said, he made a comment about,
is women, like, I guess her character's name
is Marjorie or whatever,
so women's like, like, heard that
are part of the fabric of our society.
And people, people conveniently missed out the part of it.
They're like, no, she's not the fabric,
maybe the stitch, no, trust me, we all know.
I love when we see folks that we wouldn't normally see,
You know, it's like, "I'm all," and it's that poor white person that is a big part of
a family, you know, when they say so, so, so, and Scott.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm looking forward to it.
Okay, so I'm looking, I'm absolutely looking forward to the guests that we have coming
on this month and what they're going to bring to the conversation because again, we have
- Who?
- Well, oh, Athena.
- No, Anna and, and, Anna and daughter.
- No, oh, Athena?
- No, we have a lesbian woman and a trans woman
and they're bringing this.
- Oh, Athena's coming on this one.
- Yeah, and they're bringing their experience.
It's like, it is weird.
It's like, it's like, you don't have access
to the same information that they're having.
- We're all gonna take a deep breath right now.
Jesus.
My God.
Go back to what you were talking about while I was with you.
- So that was my question.
So what are some of the topics that we're gonna hit this month that are controversial?
So we are going to, for the--
We're new race and politics.
Yeah.
Race and politics.
Yeah, basically.
We're gonna have a DEI at the end of the month.
Exactly.
Because the issue with the DEI is like, and I feel like you need to write this down.
We need to write critical thinking in there.
A critical race theory.
Critical race theory.
We need to talk about critical race theory because like the misconception is wrong.
What is it?
I don't know.
- Yeah, what is it?
- Yeah, why are people upset?
- Because they're freaking out.
Like you have people on the other side
because again, the other side's so good at messaging.
They're like good at messaging
'cause it's like, it's always the people
that have the most recent information
that talk to loudest.
You can't hear 'em, it's like.
And then they target those individuals
who don't have the same levels of education
or ability to critically think about things.
You know, it's like, it's either
or black or white or whatever.
there's no middle ground, nothing is nuanced.
- Yeah, I mean, the thing is is that my family,
my, oh God, there's so, as you know,
I'm from Pennsylvania, so I'm from a swing state.
And-- - Too bad you can't vote there.
- I can't vote there, but my family voted for Trump.
I think both times, and they're not dumb people.
- No, no, no. - You know,
and I'm not saying that you're saying that they are,
But I think that's the thing that people,
like when we're talking about like,
oh, who voted for Trump and all this other stuff is like,
I know people who voted for Trump.
I also know that like--
- I do too and they're not friends on Facebook.
- Yeah, you know, I also know people who are on the other side
of the political spectrum, who, like are people that I care
about and that I love, et cetera, et cetera.
And you know, and sometimes I think,
well, if I was raised the way you were
in the environment that you were raised,
I would probably really be conservative to you.
- Have you ever thought, okay,
so sometimes those individuals are so committed
to what they believe that I start scratching my head
and said, am I the one that's wrong?
- Right, I mean, that's the thing is that it's,
you know, if we pull the lens out
and in the grander scheme of things, you know,
like what is right and what is wrong is relative
and it's culturally situated, right?
It's, right.
And so, you pick a side.
And of course, I would say murder is wrong, racism is wrong,
homophobia is wrong, but you're gonna have someone
in some other country.
Well, like their entire countries that are actually,
you know, fuck all of those things.
- Yeah, exactly.
- Yeah.
- No, no.
- Yeah.
Yeah, I'm taking a moment.
- What about why, I guess my question is,
why is politics, why is race controversial in general?
- Well, I think it's because it's insanely personal, right?
We, that kind of go to phrases that the political
is personal, the person who's political.
- Yeah, 'cause it's gotten to a point where it's like,
it's like, it's on the line, right?
- Exactly, you know, folks are really passionate
about what they feel, and it's not no longer like,
oh, you think differently, so that's fine.
Like, I don't know, it's like, it's just,
it's so polarizing now, it's like,
because it's no longer, I think it's just the way
the folks who are there have handled it.
Like I was gonna mention, you know what I absolutely hate?
You know, okay, so Donald Trump changed the language
and how, whatever, but I hate when he sits down
with a reporter or anybody doesn't say,
that was a rude question, that was disgusting.
That was like, there's no decorum, you know?
It's just like you go from protocol or whatever,
and then to just whatever, no rules.
You take all of the, like they like to do,
you take all of the safety's off.
They come guns of blazing.
And that's kind of how things have been with politics.
Like it's, I don't agree with you,
but since I don't agree with you, you're fat.
Or you stupid or whatever.
Or I think, honestly, you know what it is,
it's social media.
It's that we all have access at our fingertips.
We get to be a part of this,
'cause it was different, I think, before,
that you had to get your information from wherever source,
and maybe we held the fire,
or there was a certain understanding
about how journalists would do things,
because there was only so many options.
But now you've got all these other little ways,
and you don't actually have to,
you don't have to report the truth,
you just have to get people to watch it.
- Yeah, my God, this is so heavy.
- I know, I know.
- So heavy.
- But honestly, it's heavy because having conversation
like we like to try to do is not normalized.
- Did I tell you, I'll tell you about that
when I lived in Mississippi,
there was like that guy that I was dating
when I was down there.
I think you did, but I always love when I learn new things about.
Because didn't you say last, you were in Alabama too or whatever?
No, I spent a summer in Mississippi.
Hey.
And I--
It sounds like the beginning of a mate for TV movie.
[LAUGHS]
So I was dating this guy
Of course.
And he--
[BELL RINGS]
I didn't tell you.
OK, so I was dating the sky.
And I was like waiting for me at his place or something like that.
The decals are not important.
Were you, were you asked up?
(laughter)
Oh my god.
I would say I had his place so I wouldn't have to stay at the dorms
because I was staying at the, I was a visiting scholar at University of Mississippi.
So staying at his place, he was like,
Ole Miss.
Yeah, Ole Miss.
How do you know about Ole Miss?
I know about Ole Miss because I went to a conference in Georgia
I'll talk about it another time.
- Oh, cool.
So I was at Ole Miss and there was a Black Lives Matter
protest and he showed up to his place
and he was upset and I was like,
I'm gonna set his name.
I was like, "Why are you upset?"
And he goes, "Well, there was a Black Lives Matter."
He was white, I don't know if he got that from--
- Yeah, no, you told--
- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So he goes, "There was a Black Lives Matter protest,
So I ran, I walked up to him and walked up to them
and I took their bullhorn and I said,
"All lives matter."
And I was like, this is, and I didn't know
that he had these kind of feelings or thoughts.
And I was like, "Oh, whoa, okay."
And I like, I don't know, you know, it's kind of a blur,
but then later on that week,
he showed me all the guns that he keeps on.
(laughs)
It's really a spin.
And I'm like, "Were the fuck am I?"
Right, the point of the story is that I,
this was like one of the first times I was like
intimately involved with someone who is incredibly conservative
who's also gay, right?
That to me is always a funny thing.
Yeah, but the thing is is that like the point of all of this
is that but he's from the South, right?
Like he was raised in a super conservative family.
He's actually originally from Louisiana.
So he was raised in a super conservative family.
Like his whole life has been that.
And even gay southerners are very different
from city southerners, like the city gays.
Yeah, and so the point is that he was human, right?
Like this is someone who I knew had feelings,
who had thoughts, who had like confusions and stuff like that.
And I would remember thinking to myself,
like is it my job to try to get you to see how I see things?
Or is it like is this, I mean, I knew I wasn't gonna do that.
- Did you stay in the relationship?
- I mean, it was, it had an expiration
because I was only gonna be there for a couple months.
So we knew that it wasn't gonna.
- For me, I mean, we still chat occasionally.
- Yeah, for me, like with my friendships or whatever.
It's not just that that's how you believe.
I start to question,
what do I think about me if I'm allowing?
Like, 'cause it's one thing to say,
this is not the way I think and I'm gonna look the other way
or this is my life and this is what I think.
And I landed on, I could not have those type of people
people in my life, at least not now.
It's modified, it's changed,
but I remember right after Trump was elected,
I began the Great Purge,
the Great Purge of the 2000s or whatever,
and it's changed, but it's something
that a lot of people don't have to think about.
I have friends who are like,
"I agree with him, this, this, and that."
Kind of like with certain Republicans,
I agree with him, but I don't agree on those things,
but I'm still gonna vote for him because,
and you have that privilege or that convenience,
but it's like, I'm all, no, you know what,
I am not interested in compromising myself
and or, yeah, do you know what I'm saying?
- I do know what you're saying.
- Yeah, it's not.
- I do know what you're saying.
But I think that's the part, Jordan asked earlier
what makes it controversial.
Well, I think part of what makes it controversial
is that literally relationships are built
and destroyed over politics sometimes.
Like there are people who no longer speak to their family, you know, because of political
beliefs. And I think, you know, to highlight what I was saying in response to that earlier,
which is that lives are on the line, right? Like there are material consequences to certain
political beliefs. And Anthony, he just made an exception for Dick. No, okay.
I'm sorry, it's like you said it was you said this has been pretty heavy so I am going to light the load
I'm gonna bring the load. I'm a light
Unless you want a heavier load
It's so funny because I met a lot of like I met a lot of conservative gay people when I was in Mississippi
But you know, I think the problem I think you're the problem
No, we should clarify because I was thinking about I was watching this thing about black
Republicans are Black Maga.
And I'm all thinking,
Black people have always been pretty conservative.
And I don't think the problem is conservative,
or Republicans, the problem is that extreme,
on either side, that extreme.
Because I even have problems with leftists,
people all the way over there.
You know, it's like,
because when you get to that place where you're not,
you're not interested in hearing, you don't,
you don't even wanna have a real conversation.
I stopped listening.
And what you're doing is you're pushing me over
further to the middle, you know,
because I'm all, hello, the only way we're gonna get things done
is if we have a way, if we were able to compromise.
- You know what I think, go ahead.
- I know what you think, but--
- No, no, no, you know what I think about it a lot is like,
okay, you know, there are conversations about policy
and okay, whatever.
- At the end of the day, and I hate that transition,
but at the end of the day--
- But she used it too.
- I'm going, too I know,
and I knew you were gonna say something in response.
I should have just kept it myself.
- I know, I know. - I know.
- It's love you, whatever speech it to with your self.
I love you. - I know.
- I have a new job.
(laughing)
- I'm sorry. - (laughing)
- But at Japan.
- That, yes, there are.
- You try to fuck?
- No.
(laughing)
- We're full on all the old stuff.
- Yeah, yeah.
- Rick and Rick and Rick and Rick and Rick.
- So what I was gonna say,
- Okay.
- Is that, okay.
So our daily lives, the majority of us will wake up,
we'll brush our teeth, we'll have breakfast,
we'll get ready to go to work, we'll go to work,
we'll come home to our families,
we'll get ready for work.
That's the life at least of an American,
just standard, right?
- In this loop, yeah.
- You know, and it's in a loop, right?
And a strange loop.
a strange loop and we are, from my perspective,
literally just trying to live day today.
Right, and like if I can think and start conversations
as that as the baseline,
it's much easier for me to listen to other people.
I think what ends up happening in political discourse
is that at some point, the topics that we're talking about
becomes so far removed from the actual people,
places, and things, that it becomes easier to kind of
dehumanize other people.
- Absolutely, yeah.
- Right, and so, and one of the,
and then that's further made complicated by the fact
that unless you are well-resourced,
if you have the money or the job or the cultural capital,
that you don't have the luxury of being in the gray,
- Right, you have to make a decision.
You have to stand on one side or the other
because your life literally depends upon it.
You know, like for people who are billionaires,
they're not gonna have the same concerns
as like the rest of us are living in the T.L.
Not that any of you live in the T.L.
'Cause I do.
- Yeah, but I mean, I understand your point.
- Yeah, you know, it's like, so, you know, fuck all.
Like maybe you're gonna lose a couple million
'cause you're paying more taxes,
but you're not really gonna,
you're not necessarily in a field at, you know?
And yeah, do you mind allowing this plane
so we can go, sorry.
- I just wanna say, yeah, I'm gonna say.
- That I am looking for to this month.
- I am looking for to because I think that the way
that we get better and the way that we encourage others
who aren't able to do what you're saying
is by having this conversation.
Some of us have to do the conversation
so that others are encouraged to join in.
Like I want folks listening to know that even if you don't feel like you're an expert at this,
have the conversation. It's like I'm all, reach out to folks that you trust or at least that you can hear.
- Through these two books that I was thinking of before we like land the plane,
I'm gonna see if I can find them. But I think I bought them not too long ago.
But there are these two books. One of them is called the political brain or the hidden brain.
And the other one is, oh god, I can't find it.
But basically, there are these two books
on political discourse.
And one of the arguments that they make
is that the way that people are rushed to the polls
are motivated to go to the polls
as if they feel something.
And that Republicans have been very good
at making people feel something.
- Oh yeah.
- Right.
And one, I'm circling all of it.
Like I'm really kind of taking a U-turn back
to where we were.
But so Republicans have been very good at making people feel
things, at making people get angry, right?
And one of the things that I think is refreshing
about the Harris-Walls campaign or ticket
is that this is the first time I feel like I'm seeing
big democratic names on the offensive, right?
Like these are people, like they're taking shots
and it's actually much more aggressive than I'm used
to seeing the Democratic Party.
- Absolutely.
And I think part of what's motivating a lot of people
is that they do feel something.
And in this case, it's joy, right?
In this case, it's hope to return back to the Obama era.
Absolutely.
Anyway, an exciting month to talk about things.
We're just waiting for that banner.
Yeah, we're waiting for that banner.
And then--
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Jordan is way too trigger happy.
Jordan, you hit that button once I'm done saying this
next line, which is find us wherever you listen to podcast.
(upbeat music)
- I hate you.
(laughing)
Jordan was like, get off the air.
Get off the air, get off the air.
- So you know another conversation, okay, so I have friends
I have friends who are passionate.
Nana is one of them.
I saw her wearing a shirt.
'Cause I wanna have a conversation
or a better understanding of the whole Palestine,
Israel thing, or whatever.
But I also am very cautious about waiting
into a conversation because--
- Well, we're only on air for 45 minutes.
- No, but it's polarizing.
It's really polarizing.
Like you say the wrong thing
and this word comes to forgiveness.
It's like I need to be able to,
Like I wanna have a conversation with somebody,
ask a question,
like,
and not have it be like,
ah, you're an automatic,
or you this or that or whatever,
it's like,
and knowing that,
and it kind of goes back to the code switching,
it's like thinking about how in the past
that may have happened,
it prevents me from having a conversation.
- Right.
So,
- It's goes back to your point,
I think a decorum,
in order to have these kind of conversations,
there needs to be an understanding on both sides
on how to have a conversation.
- Exactly. - And how not to be,
how not to get defensive or feel defensive,
or if you do feel defensive to name it
and what do you do when you name it?
- Absolutely, and everyone,
there's a lot of people say they're ready
for the conversation,
but they're not really ready for the conversation.
That part requires a doubt.
Like, first off, I'm bringing to you,
we don't have to agree,
but we do have to validate that I'm allowed to have my points
and you're allowed to have your points, right?
- Yeah, I mean, you're reminding me of,
do you know I realized I was listening to old episodes
And I say, you remind me a lot.
- That's okay because it's like,
what are you doing?
- What are you doing?
But again, in grad school,
there was a girl in my cohort who was from Palestine,
and there were also people in my cohort
that were from Israel.
And those Israelis were not very kind to her.
And I remember that was the first time,
so this was over five years ago.
That was the first time I came face to face
to actually seeing the conflict in real time.
You know, seeing like, oh shit,
like this is a longstanding conflict
and it's existing in front of me
where for such a long time it was so removed for me.
Because I'm in the Northeast and I was in Pennsylvania
and there wasn't a Jewish community there,
not that I was aware of.
We'll make a very small Jewish community,
But yeah, the point is, yeah, it's complicated, divisive.
And it's hard 'cause you have individuals
who are so determined to not participate
in what's going on now,
like by voting for a third party candidate or whatever.
And maybe that's not fair for me to say they're participating,
but they're participating the way I don't appreciate.
No, but what, I had a friend who,
actually someone who was on this podcast a while back,
um... we were having
well not really having conversation commenting on someone else's thing
and
the vitriol kind of that he had for
even you know the democrats and republicans or whatever
someone we had on
yeah a while back i mean it's a wonderful person not somebody that
yeah sure sure sure i'm not a single two-year
one of the situations unlike what i said earlier
the situation where we we don't agree
but not if i i'm not i don't feel like i'm compromising
myself, but I still loving him and having him in my life.
Yeah.
But it's one of those things where it's like,
it was pretty clear because right now he's not in the country
doing work over there.
And I'm thinking, the irony of you telling,
challenging me or challenging anyone,
we're thinking about what affects them directly.
And you have the privilege to be over there.
Not everybody has the privilege to do that.
Like you said, poor people are working all the time.
I'm too busy to do this.
It's like, so I've got to think about what's in front of me,
what's there.
He asked, he wanted to have a conversation,
and it almost sounds like what a lot of
mega people do sometimes.
It's like, so you're voting for this person, tell me why.
I'm not gonna tell you why.
What has she done?
Google it.
If you're not performing right now, Google it.
And I bet you all the stuff will pop up.
- You know, this is a few months ago,
was talking to a friend of mine, his white guy, and he was talking about how he, along
with these other people where he works.
And, you know, he's in a gold-collar job.
And a gold-collar job?
Yeah, we're like, like not blue-collar, not white-collar, but gold-collar.
He's like a CEO or something?
No, I think that's, I forget what color is that.
Gold collar is when you're like paid to think.
A gold collar job.
- I love that.
- Yeah, so I'm not gonna give this.
What he does because the people figure out who it is.
- He said he's a thinker, huh?
- So, but basically he was talking about how he along
with some of his colleagues around the listserv at work
and that people were being very vocal about
the conflict in the Middle East.
And he had very strong opinions and he expressed
really strong opinions and he turned to me and he goes, "Well, what do you think about all of this,
the fact that there was this back and forth?" And my first thought was like, I do not have the
luxury of having a strong opinion about anything in my workplace. Right? Like, my first thought is like,
I do not have the safety net where I can like, if I lose my job or like, I get like,
you know, put on some lists somewhere, like that is a fear that I sometimes have, which is like,
Actually, I'm doing this on my own.
You know what I mean?
I don't have parents.
If you know what going back home for me would be,
I would be back in the projects.
I would literally be back in the projects
if I went back home.
So I don't have a safety net.
So I do think a lot about my personal safety and security
and the decisions I make.
And of course, I'm also--
and at the same time, I try to take a stance on certain--
I do take a stance on certain things.
And I'm also not dumb.
I also know that I need to make money and I have to survive.
I think that's privilege.
That's a next level of privilege is to say and do shit without the fear of consequence.
That's one of the things, and I feel like that was one of the most exhausting things for
me around.
The existence of Trump is exactly that.
This idea that as long as you have a lot of fucking money and a lot of connections,
you are immune to consequences.
Of course, we see all these consequences that he's experiencing now, but really this
man is still running a campaign.
I know.
It's like, I've been very...
And he's in his 80s.
He's not dying before me.
Exactly.
I've been very addict in my thinking about him.
It's like, I don't believe it's going to happen until it happens.
Because he's got all of these stuff hanging over him.
And anybody else would have been under the jail by now.
And I feel like...
And I just have to keep it real.
I feel like even if she wins, I could see them
for the greater good of the country,
pardoning him, pardoning him.
That's how it works.
I absolutely see that happening, and I'm like thinking,
no consequences, no consequences.
It's like that thing we said.
Party.
(laughing)
- Part of that, it was an elusive.
- It was a listen thing, no sleep, no sleep, party.
- No lady Gaga.
- Good Gaga, is that a girl?
- She's like, nightclub, hotel, come.
(laughing)
- Yeah, and when it comes to that kind of stuff,
and that's the stuff that makes me really exhausted.
- I think this is--
- This is a stuff that makes me really exhausted.
- It's gonna need like a lobotomy.
(laughs)
Like I don't understand, I don't understand
when you are presented with the facts.
Just like folks don't get it now.
It's like what they're experiencing now
is has everything to do with what he did, those years.
And they're blaming it on and they're saying,
this person, this person, this person,
and all, you know what?
Tell me you don't understand civics
and how things work.
Like they're complaining about like,
what vice president Harris hasn't done.
Tell me you don't understand this.
You know, it's like whatever, it's like I'm all,
it's like you really don't wanna participate.
You're just a bot.
I have to learn how not to wait into conversation.
But I'll tell you what, my TikTok has gotten some.
I found my content because I will post and get all of these likes and connections and
whatever and all.
Is this all it took?
Is for you to be voice-trists?
Well, it was going to take more because normally if I was a white twink, I would have 700,000
followers.
Girl, don't do it.
No, I'm going to do it.
No, no, I mean, I'm in a real business.
I'm in a real business.
I'm in a real business because I've watched some of the content.
You get a skinny little white boy gets on there and shakes is nonexistent but and all
He's got a million followers.
- Well, it's kind of, I've been hearing a lot of things
about the Hock2 girl and how she's on tour.
And people, like, she was like, wasn't she in Korea?
They were talking to her about like Bitcoin or like,
what are you gonna do, man?
Or like, I see these memes about like,
I'm on my way to, frustrated on my way to work,
thinking about the millions at Hock2 girl made or like,
on my way to my college class, blah, blah, blah.
- You know what I mean?
- Yeah, sometimes it feels unfair.
- What are you gonna say, Jordan?
- Well, I'm just hating on you.
- No, no, it is what it is, right?
I think my thing to have conversations
about contraversial topics,
or like, you have to have the same definitions of terms.
- Oh, absolutely, it's almost like,
it's almost like you need somebody there, explain, yeah.
- You need a dictionary in the source as well.
- So you can agree on what terms actually means,
that you can have a productive conversation.
So you're just yelling about what you think,
I don't know, the word heart means, right?
- Ooh, and you, and you're--
- Well, that's interesting.
- The worst is you've gotta be,
like, it's interesting because I know you've seen situations
where people are having heat of conversation
and they're basically talking about the same fucking thing.
Like, I'm all, you guys are on the same side.
Get over it.
- Yeah, well, you know, that's, you know,
for better or for worse, I think that's what makes
Ben Shapiro a really good debater.
and Candace Sohn, what makes, you know,
you may not like them.
- I don't like, she's a rifter.
- I mean, she is a, but I am a rifter.
- So I studied rhetoric and undergrad,
so I can appreciate their ability to debate.
And one of the things that Ben is really good at,
hold on, one of the things that Ben and Candace are really good at,
is they're very good at defining the terms
of an argument while they're in the argument.
And so that's what gives them such strong control
over a back and forth with just about anything.
- That is not what I see in Candace.
I think that Candace is like those people that I figure,
if I talk louder and I press on the point
that it will make you believe that I'm intelligent
and I don't think that she is intelligent.
I think that she is disgusting.
She is absolutely disgusting.
I'm very passionate about this.
- Yeah, no.
- That's not what I mean.
It's like, I've seen her,
like the only time things matter to you
is when they matter to you, specifically.
And I think that maybe that's my privilege
that I don't have to.
I get to kind of see myself as an agent of change
and understand that some of the things that I focus in on,
I'm in it for the long haul.
I don't need to see it for me.
I would like to see it for me,
but I don't need to be here to reap the benefits of it.
God, I'm sorry.
- Yeah, no, I know I understand.
I understand and all I'm speaking to is like--
- It's so interesting.
- You're wonderful because you can parcel out
the shit that they are and look at the good qualities.
- I don't know if they're good qualities.
They have these public speaking strengths.
Yeah, some people just are able to...
Like I said, whether, and if you listen closely,
arguments eventually fall apart.
- Absolutely.
If you are someone who is okay with selling,
selling up people that are supposed to matter to you
just because you believe you've gotten yours.
That's not a good person.
And when you face--
- Oh my God, Clarence Thomas.
- When exactly.
- Yeah, yeah.
- When I worry for you, when you have to count your cost
at the end, when you say, how did you live?
And they say, well, blah, blah, no, that's not it, honey.
You forgot that you were supposed to care about people.
- I know.
- I'm gonna cut somebody.
- Ah! - I know, I know.
- Don't get me started.
- And then, you know, and then it's like,
then the other side of that is like,
I still need to go to work in the morning.
- That's exactly.
- I still have to do my laundry.
- Exactly, exactly.
- I'm gonna wipe my ass just like everybody else does.
- Do you?
I thought you had a special way of doing it.
- Well, you know, I--
- With a lavender wipe.
(laughing)
- So I didn't know that this is unusual,
but I stand up to wipe.
Do you stand up?
- What?
- I stand up to wipe.
And a lot of people, so apparently you guys don't stand up to wipe?
I didn't know. I didn't.
So I didn't know why you use wet wipes. I don't have a bidet.
Well, no, but it depends.
'Cause if it was depending on what the situation was like,
I need to make sure it all ends in there.
So I'm not standing up.
It's like, no, I mean, I didn't say I shit standing up.
I said that I wipe standing up.
I loved that for you.
I know exactly.
Oh, God.
- She's a delicate flower.
- Jordan?
- No.
- 'Cause I stand.
- Yeah. - Epic is your stand.
- And you sit while you pee.
(laughing)
- All right, let's wrap it up.
- Okay.
- Wow, this went straight to hell.
We forgot to talk about sex.
(laughing)
- Let's talk about sex, baby.
(singing)
- Yeah.
(upbeat music)
(upbeat music)