Doing the Work: Harm Reduction 🏳️‍🌈 A Queer Recovery Podcast 🎙️

Doing the Work: Harm Reduction

🏳️‍🌈Have any questions, comment or suggestions? Wanna be a guest co-host?

🏳️‍🌈Join Anthony & LouiLou every Wednesday at 8pm PST for our podcast, broadcast live from The Castro Country Club in San Francisco.

🏳️‍🌈We strive to create a brave space where we engage in topics of recovery, where there are no outside issues.

🏳️‍🌈Find us on all podcast channels: At The CCC

🏳️‍🌈To send us a voice message or ask a question: go to https://www.castrocountryclub.org/podcast

#harmreduction #queer #recovery #podcast #vulnerability #couragetochange #emotionalsobriety #restless #irritable #discontent #sobersex

Transcript

Welcome, you are at the CCC.
Where there are no outside issues, my name is Anthony M. and I'm an alcoholic, another
bozo on the bus, and I care about you.
And I'm Louilou and my pronouns are he and him, I'm recovery for crystal meth and
alcohol, and I am always in search of balance.
And each week we strive to foster a brave state so we can engage in conversations centered
around topics of recovery.
And our intention is to hold an inspire better spaces for more people in recovery by tackling
issues sometimes used to separate us.
But before we do that, please like, share, comment, and rate this episode.
Rate this episode, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.
Tell your friends about us.
Absolutely.
Comment, what do you normally say?
You ask people to rate us?
Rate I said that.
You said that already.
We're just trying to fill the space because this aren't cases long.
We're just trying to fill the space because this aren't cases long.
We're just trying to fill the space because this aren't cases long.
We're just trying to fill the space because this aren't cases long.
We're just trying to fill the space because this aren't cases long.
We're just trying to fill the space because this aren't cases long.
We're just trying to fill the space because this aren't cases long.
- There's the production team is slowly trying to decrease
how much airtime we have.
(laughing)
- That makes sense.
- Yeah.
Another disclaimer, the thoughts and opinions expressed
on that the CCCR is that when we do not represent anyone
but ourselves the information and thoughts shared here
are for general information purposes only.
In other words, we're just a couple of friends
behind a mic here to entertain you.
- Entertain.
- Entertain you.
- Today's Lewis's birthday.
- Oh my God.
- Oh my God.
(laughing)
- Hey, it's Louis' birthday.
- I don't know why, I don't know why I thought
we could just ease through it.
You know, I don't know, maybe it's,
have you ever been like this?
It's like I don't need to celebrate my birthdays.
When I was younger, it's like I was all excited about it,
but now it's just like whatever.
I'm not afraid of getting older or anything,
I'm just like whatever, you know what?
- Is it because it reminds you of your mortality?
- No, you know what?
Okay, so I really am uncomfortable with certain attention.
- I thought you were gonna say I really am uncut.
(laughing)
- Wow.
- Okay, okay, well that's not where I was going.
- Where are we talking, go on, go on.
- Yeah, no, but it's kind of, okay, so I,
it's interesting because I find myself doing a lot of things
like drag and other things where I am thrust
into the center or whatever,
And, or even I find myself censoring without knowing.
And honestly, it's like, it's not always comfortable.
I refer back to that time right after I won the pageant.
And I was on stage.
And folks were taking pictures.
And that was like, unconfident.
I was like, what?
It felt like I was 100 years.
I mean, it's my anxiety.
It's my insecurities.
It's a whole lot of stuff.
It's like, what is that?
That fraud thing, whereas like--
- Imposter syndrome.
- Imposter syndrome.
Yeah, so it's like, and then with the birthday thing,
it's like, "I'm on, happy birthday, I'm on,
"look, oh God, stop it."
(laughing)
- Maybe it's not for you.
- Is it?
- Do you know what I mean?
Maybe it's, the celebration isn't about you,
it's about like your friends being able to like--
- I appreciate that when you,
if you might say that with regards to mourning me if I pass.
- Wait.
(laughing)
- No, no, as believe it's okay.
- No, and I mean that because it's like the morning
is for other people, but celebrating?
- I guess what I'm saying is that friendship,
and relationships, you have to allow people
to be your friends, right?
And so one of the ways-- - And I do, I do.
It's like-- - Well, I'm not saying
to you specifically, I'm just saying what is,
and then I'm proposing this idea.
- No, it's not, you're right, you're right.
- No, okay, I'll get over it, I'll get over it.
- Yeah, I mean, it's only 24 hours.
Oh, we already have a comment.
- Oh my God.
- Jamie writes, "Thanks for turning 60 today, Lewis."
- Okay.
- Jamie, I know where you live,
and I know how to get into your place.
- And not thanks for turning to you.
- Yes.
(laughing)
- I know where you live.
- Wow, okay, see, that is, I appreciate that more
than I appreciate like this, this sappy sentiment.
You know, come for me, come for me
because it'll make me look less like a bully
when I come back.
- I think your issue is intimacy.
(laughing)
- Which is fine, I get it.
- Maybe it is.
Maybe it is.
I'm feeling attacked.
(laughing)
How are you doing?
- But.
- It took us a side.
I'm really glad you're alive.
(laughing)
I'm doing really good, I started.
I'm in a new role and it's been really nice.
It's been challenging, I'm in my first week.
It's been really challenging.
- Is that what you want?
- Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a big system.
So I'm like, I'm learning a lot of new things.
- You're really good at dealing with big systems, huh?
What are you saying?
(laughing)
- That's like, that's, all right.
So it's a big system.
- I couldn't help it, I mean,
you should know better.
It's like, how long have we been doing this?
- If you feed it to me, I'm going to.
- Yeah, you're gonna eat it.
- So the point is that it's a very big system.
And I forgot, I'm surrounded by gay people
and addicts and alcoholics all the time.
And everyday life, and so being in a formal environment
where my colleagues are not addicts and alcoholics,
especially one of the newer people
that I'm working with is very different.
- And what to what we were talking about before?
- Yeah, it's a very different experience.
- Do you feel like you might have to modify?
- You know a little bit.
I've been thinking a lot about that, except that,
oh god, it's gonna happen.
- Is that, are you gonna cry?
- No, I hit a burp.
- Oh, it's 'cause I, I'm excited, are you gonna cry?
- No, no, no, no.
So, what was your question?
- It's like, do I feel like I have to modify a little bit?
- A little bit.
- Yeah.
- There is a part of me a little bit, but,
and at the same time, I was thinking about this yesterday.
I was talking to Benji about it actually,
about how I am noticing myself, no one is telling me to do anything.
I am noticing myself kind of retreat a little bit and feeling like I have to change.
And Benji was like, isn't that interesting?
Like he was encouraging me to like think about like what are the benefits of that and like,
why would I might be doing that?
Anyway, the point is that yeah, right?
And I think a little bit of it is fear because I don't want to lose credibility.
and I was thinking about the podcast
and I was like, oh my god, but they hired me knowing.
- No, exactly.
- Well you know what's really interesting.
Like this is a good part of it.
- And we've talked about that before, yeah.
- No, but this is a good topic
because I'm thinking about like the fact that
when we're immersed in this environment
and the norm, the norm is honesty
and talking about stuff that people don't normally talk about.
And then you go and you find yourself
Because ideally, I'm not trying to, I want to grow,
I want to expand, I want to, and that means I'm going to be put into situations
where people don't understand it.
And back to what I've said in the past, it's like, and you've even said it,
I can't trust everybody with what I have.
Right, right.
Like, especially not, sometimes not in the workplace.
Right, and what, so there's a, there's, I have a colleague who's at a different site
and she is in recovery.
and my conversations with her are like,
they feel more like what are conversations are like.
- I like that.
- And I think the other thing is,
I think the other, I think we left the windows open in the back.
I think the other thing is that--
- And the other thing is,
- Oh, there's like five of us on this team.
- I'm not, one person can't be responsible for everything.
- So, if one person responsible for anything,
it certainly isn't you.
- Five people are here today.
- So I'm just gonna,
- Disclosure.
- What's the disclosure?
- Put it in the parking lot.
Anthony likes, is the diva, he likes the top.
- Oh, don't, don't, so he shows that.
- Fake news.
(laughing)
- Fake news.
(laughing)
- Your foolish shit, fake news.
Go ahead.
- What was I saying?
- Oh, that, that, I think what I'm trying to say here
is that my goal, especially in this role
and future roles is to show up authentically.
But more than that, it's like, I know my community,
and I know what it's like to drink and use
and to be out in the world.
And I want to be, I don't want to forget
where I came from quote unquote,
just because I'm in a--
- Absolutely.
- On the other side.
- And I know this is not onto the topic,
but isn't it possible to temper maybe how you do things
and still be authentic?
- Yeah, I mean, I'm not going into work being like,
- I'm not.
- Why am I saying this not?
- I don't even, I can't even say what.
- I'm not saying this not for you,
but for me or anybody else because it's like,
especially if you're in a situation where,
you know, it probably isn't a good look if you are,
or you know. - It's like all over the place here.
- Yeah, exactly.
- So 10 minutes in and we haven't even gotten to the topic.
- That's because I love talking to you about things.
- I love talking to you too, yeah. - Yeah.
- So cool.
We'll probably come back to that anyway.
- Yeah, exactly.
So today we're talking about harm reduction.
- Exactly.
- Harm reduction for those who may not be familiar.
So it's a public health approach, yeah?
So it's a public health approach that is focused
on reducing harm caused by substance use, right?
- Or anything.
- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- For just about,
I was gonna get there.
So, yeah, yes.
- I just wanted to offer my two cents.
- You could have waited your turn.
(laughing)
- Wow, wow, wow.
- So the goal is to reduce the,
the goal is to reduce the negative,
like negative health effects, legal consequences,
social consequences, right?
Like it's focused on reducing harm,
hence why it's harm reduction.
And kind of like at broader scope,
it's about reducing harm to individuals and communities, right?
'Cause we're not just talking about one person,
one person makes up a lot of people.
Or that I brought you know what I'm trying to say here.
- Absolutely.
- So that conversation, we'll have that conversation today.
And this is especially, I think, relevant for us
because we're both in 12 step and 12 step
is an abstinence only program, right?
Which is considered diametrically opposed
or the opposite of a harm reduction model, right?
So harm reduction would say actually,
you don't have to abstain to reduce harm,
You don't have to do without completely.
It's just saying you could do this in a way
that will cause you fewer consequences.
Yeah, we'll result in fewer consequences.
So let's start there.
OK.
So I know you have some opinion thoughts and stuff like that.
Well, I had opinions.
It's like I was hoping that our guests would come
because I, and this has to, this was me early in recovery.
- Okay, sure.
- I think what it was as I was, I had reached that point.
You know, something happens in 12 step, you know,
for part or anything, you know, you get really passionate
about all of a sudden, I'm really excited to be here.
- Right.
- And I slip into that over zealousness or whatever.
And I think that my way is the only way.
- Right.
- And I had to be under a year, whatever,
going to harm reduction groups at a stone wall.
And I was participating in these with individuals
who didn't have the same goals that I had.
And that was interesting.
It was weird because, again, I was thinking it's like, oh my God,
I thought we were all, you know.
And the case in point, it's like, and I know this now
in retrospect that, you know, I'm doing this for me.
I don't have, like this is what works for me.
Each individual gets to decide for them what works for them.
Some people decide never to go through this process.
Some people decide to continue to do harm reduction
and it works for them.
But at the time, I would sit in the meetings
and it seemed to me at the time,
and I'm flashing back to it, that it was coddling.
- Harm reduction was coddling.
- Yeah, that it was coddling.
And it was only in the way that the city
was the way that they were throwing things at individual
And it's almost like, that's where it was.
It's like, are you making excuses?
It's like they have to do the work.
It has to be hard.
They have to struggle in whatever.
I want to be able to, like, when I'm feeling this way,
go and have a drink, you know, to take the edge off
or whatever, that was me then.
- This is excellent.
- Yeah.
- This is excellent, because what you're seeing,
the two things, so what you're saying
is, in part, how harm reduction is approached.
But I want to comment on what you said first, right?
So I think it's not uncommon for people in 12-step
or abstinence-only programs to have that take, right?
And I think in large part, because for many of us,
it's saved our lives, right?
And so it's not coming from a place--
well, I can't speak for everyone,
but it's not necessarily coming from a place of like,
oh, you're doing it wrong.
It's coming from a zealousness about how,
we approached recovery.
- And it was almost like when folks relapse
and they come back and folks start acting weird
about that or whatever.
What it was, I can look back on it now,
was a challenge to what was working for me.
And like I didn't need anything to make that shaky.
I didn't need anything to make that not solid.
You know what I'm saying?
- Yeah, I'm sorry, they're bugs flat.
- I know exactly.
- They're bugs.
And I think, I think--
- 'Cause it would have been too dangerous
to entertain those ideas.
- Oh, absolutely, absolutely.
- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And we'll talk more about that.
I have like some stats that I wanna talk about
around its like effectiveness.
Oh my God, excuse me.
I think Jordan wants to say something.
Go ahead.
My view on harm reduction right is it is saving lives
and the fact that like part of harm reduction is you test all
your drugs right part of it is that you rationalize that like,
oh, if I can smoke weed instead of do heroin,
then that's better.
Right.
And so I think another goal with harm reduction is
to prolong your life right.
Yeah.
And that's just to say that we're trying
to pick one lesser of the evil, right?
- Right, right, yeah.
And to extend that to,
I know in the earlier years of HIV prevention,
the harm reduction model was, for example,
condoms, condoms, condoms, yeah.
But if you were using harm reduction,
they would say things like,
make sure that you're using a lot of lubricant
if you're not gonna use condoms so that
you, there isn't more tearing, right?
- Yeah, sorry.
maybe stick to oral sex instead of penetrative sex.
Right?
So, but that is a harm reduction model.
- No, exactly, no.
I just had to-- - Pulling out, you know,
there's just a lot of things.
- That's a rhythm method.
- The rhythm method.
- I still don't know what that is.
No, I agree with you, I agree with Jordan.
I am so grateful and it took a while for me
to kind of let go of that.
And I really feel like it had everything to do with my fear
and my fears.
- Oh no, I mean, 100%.
- I can look back now.
And when I see other people reacting that way,
it's like I can be patient with them.
And I realize that, 'cause for me,
I'm practicing harm reduction right now.
Harm reduction for me is complete abstinence.
- Right, right.
And so what you're reminding me of here
are there's three kind of primary principles
behind harm reduction, right?
One of them is like needing people where they are.
So, right, let's actually, it starts off non-judgmental.
That's the first approach.
It's to be non-judgmental in what's happening, right?
Like, are we, like, I don't have an opinion
about your use or not use, no judgment.
I'm not approving or disapproving.
My focus here is on how can we get you
to have fewer consequences because of your use, right?
And then we have respect for autonomy
and people's decision, like the capacity for them
to make decisions about themselves,
without having someone kind of like tell them
that they're wrong, right?
And then the other thing that I understand
from harm reduction is that you can also,
there's room to celebrate like the little wins, right?
It's like, okay, you're still using,
but you're using clean needles now, you know?
You're not using in front of your kids, right?
- Yeah.
- So what you're reminding me of
these principles that underlie harm reduction,
which is kind of a little different from,
I mean, at least the culture around 12th step,
'cause it can be very like,
no, it's in, I mean, in some schools of 12th step.
- Other thing being a crystal meth addict or whatever.
I feel like harm reduction,
like I can look back on the harm reduction
has really helped a lot of crystal meth addicts kind of get to,
because when I was in it, unlike,
And maybe it's the same without color, whatever,
but what it does to your psyche,
and like everything is upside down.
I almost had to convince myself that the drugs were,
I had believed that they were helping me and not hurting me.
- The drugs?
- Yeah.
- They were helping me and not hurting me.
And so with harm reduction,
making, you know, having someone come in and say,
"Hey, you know, maybe you don't have to stop,
but you know, all the things like getting clean needles
and things like that.
- Right.
- You know, I guess, you know, it has put along your life,
but.
- Yeah, I mean, and you know--
- I had a moment.
- Yeah, and some examples of harm reduction in,
and we live in San Francisco, right?
Going back to what you were talking about there,
so some examples around that would be like
needle exchange programs or safe use sites, right?
I'm trying to think of other examples.
All the Naloxone, the Narcan.
Narcan, right?
To have that on you.
Yeah, to have that.
Yes.
Even programs like Stonewall have group therapy sessions that are harm reduction focused,
right?
I think is another advantageous to have that space, right?
For me, it kind of took the stigma out of it when I was there, right?
to kind of admit that I do have a problem
and how do I address it in a way that's not so daunting
as 100% abstinence, right?
- Yeah, exactly.
- I have to, in my mind, when I first went to Stonewall,
it was like, I need to titrate,
right, I need to slowly come off of this stuff
because just to go zero to 100 or 100 to zero.
- Oh, right, 100%.
Yeah. - Yeah, I love the way you said that.
- Like medical detox.
- That's what I was thinking as I needed to.
I needed to ease my way into this new way of thinking.
- Yeah, I mean, and when I first came across this idea,
And we were talking about this before we went on air.
But I've been reading this book.
It's called Dopamine Nation.
It's a quick read.
I think it's by Lauren.
It's probably like--
She's like a big--
He's like it a quick read.
It's a professor.
She's a--
No, no, no, no.
It's a very good read.
It's a--
I read it.
I read it.
I read it.
It's called Dopamine Nation.
She's a scholar, a researcher, director.
Yeah, she's at Stanford University.
I think her doctor, I'll find her name.
I think it's like a little cast too.
- Oh, she's amazing.
Yeah, yeah, she's amazing.
And I like the way she approached the book.
We're not getting paid to advertise this book,
but Dopamine Nation is a wonderful book
It's probably the first time I've read someone write
about addiction in a way that was,
she shows empathy for her clients.
She relates to the addiction by sharing some of her own stuff.
So it's a great read.
And then, you know, she also puts in a lot of different kind of, she cites current research
in a very accessible way.
That being said, I came across this idea about people who, they go through a period of
abstinence and then return to use but are able to do it recreationally.
So they can, they return to like moderate and maybe less than moderate.
That just goes against our readings.
- No, right, right.
But that's much more complicated.
- Yeah, I know.
- Right, because there are a lot of things
that we have to consider here, right?
What was the drug?
What was the circumstances in which the person stopped?
What were the reasons, right?
And--
- Did you see that way?
You don't watch this other video?
- What was that raised at?
- What was that raised at?
- Oh, it was the car.
- It was car.
- Yeah, before she became as big as she is now.
- But she still do that now.
She don't care.
- Oh, I love her.
I love when she talks politics,
'cause it's just packaged in my mind.
- Side, side bar.
I absolutely hate when people are disingenuous
and they say, "This person in music should stay
"out of politics," or whatever.
- Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
- You only get with, you only don't like it
if they're not voting for the person you want.
It's like, whatever.
If I have a vote, I get to talk about it.
- Right, thank you for sharing.
So I was also thinking about,
I don't care, it's like notice this like water off a duck's back
- Water on the deck.
- I'm used to the abuse.
- Okay, speaking of elections, right,
a couple years ago,
San Francisco proposed a safe injection site
in the tenderloin and the city voted it down.
- 'Cause this, you know what I mean?
- Well, I live in the T.O.
Let's get back to it.
- Yeah, let's get back to it.
- That's definitely a topic.
- Let's think about that too, yeah.
- Um, shit, that's a whole conversation.
But I found some studies that I wanted to--
- They sure could use it now.
I wanted to cite here.
So needle and syringe programs,
so they have been shown to reduce HIV transmission
by 33%.
So to speak to its effectiveness.
- Yeah.
- Let's see, yeah, studies have found that areas
with needle and syringe programs
have lower rates of HIV and hepatitis C
when compared to areas without those programs.
Then you have supervised injection sites.
It says North America's first legal supervised injections
I found a 35% decrease in overdose deaths
in the surrounding area.
Let's see, an Naloxone distribution,
directly saved lives.
How many?
It was like an eloxone program
said prevent over 10,000 deaths in the United States alone.
And of course, so medication assisted treatment
like methadone to reduce the issues from heroin and CIO.
I shone to reduce opioid-related deaths by 50% or more.
So it is effective, right?
But let's go back to what Jordan was talking about.
- I know.
- About why it was, I don't know why it was voted down,
but as someone who lives in the TL,
and you all have been in the TL,
it's a good idea and theory,
but the TL is almost uninhabitable, right?
like the streets are lined.
- A lot of it now, a lot of it.
- I mean, it has, okay, but yeah, yeah, let's--
- It was like, imagine, okay, so imagine before
the shelter in place in the pandemic,
because I think it got worse.
- Of course, yeah, yeah, of course.
I mean, COVID, COVID did a lot of things.
I mean, COVID, just as a sidebar,
during COVID domestic violence disputes and stuff like that,
intimate partner violence.
- Well yeah, it's like,
- We're everywhere.
- So living in the tea,
so the other thing I have to say is
that the city has been cleaning up the teal.
- Yeah.
- In a very big way.
But I can tell you that before these major changes
within the last few months,
that if you go down the Civic Center or VNS,
there are entire blocks of people
that are like using and selling kind of--
- Absolutely.
- And so, honestly, I will say this,
You know how some people say it's like,
you deal with the thing that'll kill you first.
- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- I feel like, I feel like the thing that's,
all of the stuff that's happening now makes it so that
a conversation about safe injection sites
is further down the line.
It's almost like it's been pushed down.
- Right.
- Because that's not the answer.
- Well, and here's the other part of this.
The other part of this is why the TL.
Right, out of all the places in the city, why the TL.
And so that's a bigger conversation, right?
That's about--
Because you are not going to have it next to my place
in the same time.
Right, right, right, right, exactly.
But, right, and so that's problematic, right?
There's--
I don't know.
But wait, it's a bit classes.
So wait, was it for the TL?
Well, have you--
Well, because I think--
Yeah, yeah.
But I think--
I mean, where else would they have put it?
But what I'm saying is I think it may speak
to the programs that were there.
because it's like if the programs that were there,
they're advocating for it,
then that would make sense why they would sit.
It wasn't because the GL,
because if it was a program that was in South of Market
or whatever.
- That's a good argument,
but I don't know if that's what was happening.
I just think about, even if that is so,
that it is so that there were programs there.
- And also it's mean,
it's also it's meeting people where they are
because for some reason people have gravitated to that.
But here's the problem though.
The problem is that it's a low income area.
And so because it's a low income area,
it's made worse by these kind of programs.
Like it's not necessarily safe.
Number one, there's a lot of theft.
Right?
Like I'm talking about the T.O.
- Okay, yeah.
So what I'm saying is that it's already a, it's a poor neighborhood.
And then you're adding other things that also compromise the health and safety of that
neighborhood.
But I think the argument is a safe injection site doesn't, in the fact state that it
reduces a bunch of things, right?
That you just listed off.
Yeah, but it doesn't say at the exclusion of other things, right?
It's like, yeah, in May, and where we are reducing harm, right?
And to be sure, I'm on the side of a harm reduction model,
but what I'm saying is that we can't think about
harm reduction at the exclusion of everything else.
- Not absolutely.
- Right, I think we might be thinking of,
I'm thinking of a safe injection side,
and I don't know how it will look or whatever.
I'm not thinking of it as a trap house,
thinking of it as a clinic,
like almost like a methadone clinic
that has a complete problem with the environment.
- Exactly.
And I'm 100% on board for that.
I am not 100% on board for what I see.
- Yeah, and so I think that, no, I understand.
- For example, if there's just an open space to say,
you guys go using the--
- Girl, 100%.
I have literally seen a drug deal go by
with cops across the street.
- Oh yeah.
- Or like, where there's patrolling
and there's nothing done.
That is a problem.
That's not harm reduction.
I mean, I guess in a way it is harm reduction because I don't know.
For the cops it's lazy, it's harm reduction in the city because they shuffle everybody
to one area.
Right, right, right.
At least we know it's going on here.
Right.
And what I want to say is that it's a great idea and it is effective and it has to be
done in a way where it's sustainable and it doesn't cause more harm, right?
Sometimes like the best solutions are not without their consequences.
- Yeah, exactly.
Well, I think that there has to be an under,
in my mind, there has to be an underlying
something with harm reduction.
There always has to be education,
education and opportunity for people to see
that there's other ways to go.
- Well, this is, this is great.
- Right, right, right.
- This is what we're doing when meeting you here
a bunch, you know what, there's a price.
(laughing)
There's a price and that price is learning more
because you know, I hear people talk about all the time.
I was in pain whatever I didn't know what to do
before I came into the room,
so I didn't know where to go.
And I know what to do.
and a lot of times people don't go there
out because they don't know.
- Well, yeah, right.
And I have really liked what the city is doing right now.
I'm all look for it one like in a second,
but I really like what the city is doing right now.
Basically what's happening is that they have created,
they've created services where the ideas
to rehabilitate people, to get people resourced, et cetera, et cetera.
So it's not like we're just throwing people--
- Are you talking about the one-stop shops,
like where the navigations?
- The Navigation System.
- Yeah, yeah, yeah, the Navigation System.
So, do you have an opinion about that Jordan?
What is it?
- Again, it's a similar thing to having
the Safe and Directions at right.
You can have it there, right?
But because there's such high needs,
I don't think we're ever gonna be able to serve
every single person, right?
And knowing that San Francisco has a lot of services
already in place, people who are unhoused,
choose to come to some places like San Francisco
because they know their services.
And so I think the demand is so high.
And unfortunately, we just don't have the resources
to meet that demand.
I think I feel like when I was working in health services,
I was working for the Black Coalition on AIDS.
They're the Rafiki Wellness.
And now it seemed as though all of the services
and all of the different agencies,
sometimes they were doing the same thing.
It was duplicated.
and you'd have to go here there everywhere.
And I understood that these navigation centers
for funding and for kind of streamlining,
they seem to make sense, but yeah, you're right.
It's like folks, even the idea that other places,
other places were sending people on buses to here,
to get them out of there, get them out of their thing,
and then we had, oh man, it's like,
and I heard that Mayor Breed was giving people bus tickets
to go away.
- I don't know if that's--
- Yeah, I mean, I don't know about that,
but I don't know about that,
but I do know-- - I don't have to get in trouble
if I come off. - No, no, no, no,
and merit.
(laughing)
- I mean, it's okay to kind of think critically
about the state of our city.
I will tell you as someone who lives in the T.L.
that I have seen really great improvement,
Right, like at least the streets that I live or walk on,
they're not overly populated with a bunch of people
using on the street or like selling on the street, right?
So. - What are they doing?
- I think because, are they pulling--
- Like, where are they going?
- I mean, I can only-- - I'm only like
a celebrity or somebody important comes to town,
where they get a credit.
- No, no, no, no, no, this has been,
this has been-- - They throw a cover over.
- Yeah, they put them under the rug.
(laughing)
in this, but they put them in bark.
So, but in this case, they, you know, I don't know,
I don't know where they're going,
but I can tell you as like someone who lives there
that I've seen changes, like I see patrolling,
and I also see the crisis intervention people out there,
you know, like, and I think it's being done
in a very humane way, like the encampment sites,
they're giving people advanced notice.
- I've always found that kind of a challenge.
- And then they also have people hold on,
before you see anything, I just wanted to give
more complete pictures that they have these incampment sites,
they bring people there and it's done in a very humane
and respectful way and people are given access
to various different things, right?
So there are things that are being done
and I think it's like in the spirit of harm reduction.
- And I think it is an idea of access, right?
So like something like a safe injection site,
even in places like Stonewall
whether it is education around harm reduction too,
like that needs to happen, there needs to be able to have access to these kinds of places,
right? But if we don't build it, then there's no access to it. If you're watching, or if you're
watching right now, I just want you to know that that's the voice of God. We're all looking around,
like, George, I come on. What is this? Yeah, I read an article on the times where they were
outlining the program, but I can't find it right now. But it's just like doing the work of a
- Right.
- Harm reduction, right?
There has to be a place to do it.
- Right, exactly.
- Right, exactly.
- Like, the 12-step programs are everywhere
'cause they happen, they're accessible
to many places, especially in the city.
Right, and I think there seems to be
a, what's the word,
a stigma around harm reduction?
Right, oh, it doesn't work.
- I don't know.
- Well, you don't know.
- Isn't the stigma,
is it stigma?
'Cause it's kind of like, okay, so for the lack
of a better term, it can be kind of wishy-washy
for some people because it's like,
- Why?
- No, okay, because like,
if we're meeting people where they are,
so you know, is there, you know,
recidivism is the one that's the one that's the one.
What is the rate of like folks like,
because when I was, when I was in that class,
I remember folks would come one week,
they wouldn't come the next week, whatever,
and then some of the stuff that I heard,
and it's like, okay, great, you know,
is there anything really changing?
- You can do the same thing about 12 step, right?
Like, I think it's about doing the work, right?
You have to do the work regardless.
So whether it's harm reduction, you have to be diligent on your harm reduction models,
your harm reduction, attitudes, whatever day-to-day stuff that harm reduction can look like.
So I'm thinking of having test strips, having an arcane on you, being diligent about testing
everything you do, being making sure that all the needles that you have are new, not
used, that's me doing the work.
Yeah, I know the other thing here that I feel like is missing is that.
And I think the other thing that at least I have to remind myself of is that we're talking about human lives and we're talking about human people.
You know, we're talking about people like we're talking about things in kind of like a theoretical sense, but we are talking about people who are living and breathing.
And on one end, I think about it, like just from like a humanistic perspective is that people are driven.
to substances for a variety of reasons.
I think that a lot of those reasons are rooted in pain and trauma, et cetera, et cetera,
et cetera.
Are there exceptions to that very likely?
But I think that these are people who are ill and that we have to be careful about how
we talk about it, right?
Because I think sometimes I forget that I'm talking about a theory or an approach and I'm
like actually know I'm talking about someone's life.
- Yeah, but okay, so, and I understand what you're saying,
but it's like if we're just having like a conversation
about it, I think that tip-toeing around
is not gonna help us get to--
- No, no, no, for sure, but I guess what I'm saying is like,
that's another issue that I have with that,
because yeah, I think that it's almost like,
what I used to say, it's like,
when I host when I host Mascara,
I like throw my drag in
I would watch the performance,
think about what I was gonna say,
and then I would tone it down.
And then that's when the tempering comes in.
Because when I'm actually putting it into practice
when I'm talking to people,
when I'm faced with individuals,
that's when you get to explore the humanity of someone.
But when I'm talking about, what is this?
What is this work in, whatever?
How can we make this better?
Is this changing stuff or whatever?
It's almost like, I'm planning something.
I'm gonna drink big.
And then I'm gonna move into the place of reality
- Right, realistic.
- Yeah, and I think what I'm holding here,
at this mic, yeah, is the mic.
I think what I'm holding here,
what's because it's like,
and because it's like, it's not hearing you hear me.
So, I'm blown away how we were.
- I know I shouldn't do that, Brandon said Stop IT.
(laughing)
I was gonna say that, harm reduction,
I, what I'm holding here is that it's complicated.
- Oh, absolutely.
- Number one, that you're complicated.
I try not to be an outsider.
- I know, keep trying.
- I know that it's complicated
that we're talking about human lives
and that people are suffering
and that I would hope that if I were on this street
and I were suffering that whoever is making decisions
about things that might impact me,
might hold that like, I'm a living breathing person
that deserves respect and to be treated like humanly.
- That's why it takes both types
to participate in the conversation
because I think that we can challenge each other
because if I'm so caught up in emotions or whatever,
and I'm not thinking 'cause somebody's got to do the,
make the challenge. - 100%.
- Somebody got to make tefchoices.
- Right, right, 100%.
I mean, I will pull the plug if you need me to.
- Right.
(laughing)
(laughing)
- What I wanna say,
God, just to me off.
- I'm sorry, I said that.
- No, no, no, so,
you're talking about the different.
- Tough choices
-Tough choices, yeah.
And I think here's another thing that I really like
that she says in dopamine nation is that
we are kind of pain adverse, right?
like we don't like being uncomfortable.
And that's one of the things that we have to learn
how to do is to tolerate pain.
It's to tolerate distress.
And that goes for people who are in recovery,
like we have to learn how to be uncomfortable without using.
And similarly, when people are out in the world
and they're trying to do things,
sometimes you're gonna be uncomfortable
in the pursuit of something better.
- Right, I also think that you don't have to,
doesn't have to be imaginary butterflies and you treat people with kid gloves. You can
be direct and forthcoming in the way that I'm expressing this.
Of course. Yeah. Because in my mind, it's like, I want to treat you like an adult. And
I want to treat you like an adult. I should be able to have a conversation, you know,
And you may not like what you hear, but--
- You're talking to me.
- Well, hey.
- No, I'm not saying you may not like what you hear,
but it doesn't mean I don't respect you,
'cause if I'm telling you a truth,
and I'm gonna say a truth,
and you take it, because I think,
I agree with you, it's like being a person
who had had been homeless, not homeless on the street,
but homeless in the shelters and everything,
and wanting to have that respect,
and wanting to be treated a certain way.
- Wait, we have five minutes left, I know.
- I love it.
- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
This was juicy.
- Yeah, I mean, I think we're gonna say something, Jordan.
- I think my two cents, right, is like the theme
of this whole month, right, is doing the work
and how we can do the work in different ways.
I think people need options to address the same issue,
the same way that you have multiple copingisms
for anxiety, depression, blah, blah.
We need different options because it's not a lot of sense.
- 100%.
- 100%.
I love that, Jordan.
And I love that as a place to land because,
in order to be effective,
we have to have options.
Right, like, abstinence-only programs
are not gonna work for everyone.
- No, no, no.
- Right.
And yeah.
- Five is how abstinence programs don't work for themselves.
- Okay, I wanted to, before we kind of close out,
There are, sorry, I mentioned earlier about controlled use
and like what the effectiveness is around controlled use.
And here are some studies I found.
So let's see, in alcohol research and health,
it's a journal, they found that between seven
and 18% of individuals who had been dependent on alcohol
were able to maintain low risk drinking over the long term
without returning to alcohol dependent.
So basically this is people who had issues
or went into treatment because they were drinking.
Their drinking was out of control between seven
and 18% of them, after going through a period of abstinence,
were able to go back to lower risk drinking.
That's between seven and 18%.
And then there was a long-term study that was conducted.
I think the last name is Valien.
1995 followed a group of men over 50 years
and found that a small percentage of those who had been
alcohol dependent could return to moderate drinking
without relapse and then cannabis,
that's a little bit more complex, right?
Because it has a lower dependency potential.
Go ahead. - No, no.
- But it has a lower dependency potential,
like alcohol or opiates, but some research
shows that some individuals who have quit using cannabis
for extended period can return to casual use
without developing dependency again.
- And they find they have more energy
and they're productive.
(laughing)
- And so the, and drug and alcohol depends.
- Yeah, approximately 20 to 30% of individuals
who quit cannabis eventually return to use
with a portion of them maintaining
to non-problematic use.
And then let's see, a review studies of opiate use found
that nearly 90% of individuals who quit opiate use
and later resumed use did so in a way that was problematic.
Right, so can you return to use maybe,
that also changes on what it is that you're using.
- And these are persons' individual goals.
Yeah, of course.
The goal, like motivations,
and then the last one I have here is on tobacco.
It says tobacco cessation studies suggest
that very few individuals can return to occasional
smoking after quitting.
The majority of people who try to smoke occasionally
after quitting eventually return to regular smoking.
One study published in Addiction found that among those
who had quit smoking, over 70% who attempted to return
to occasion are used quickly reverted to daily smoking, right?
So can it work?
Can some people return to kind of moderate,
maybe non-problematic use?
Sure.
Is it always successful?
No, and we see that with the stats.
I guess the takeaway there before we land a plane
is like, I'm a depends on you.
Right, and that's exactly it.
And I love that too returning to this idea of like,
people are autonomous beings, right?
So they get to make a decision.
Absolutely.
Right.
The Castro Country Club is a safe and sober community center for all people and a refuge
for the LGBTQ Recovery Community.
We provide programs and services that help people change their lives by supporting personal
growth.
Our vision is to reduce the suffering of addiction by connecting people to community,
opportunity, and support.
You can find more information, including all the ways to contact us at www.castrocountryclub.org
up slash podcast.
Yes, and tune in every Wednesday at 8 p.m. Pacific Standard Time.
We go live on our Castro, Country Club, Facebook, and YouTube channels.
Find us wherever you listen to podcasts.
[music]
Okay.
There it goes.
Why did you wait so long?
So, I was going to talk about something.
So you know how they talk about in 12 step, okay?
So we say alcohol and drugs, they were a solution.
And then we get sober.
And then we realize that the alcohol and drugs, which is the portion of it because we have
emotional sobriety that we have to deal with or whatever.
Stay with me on this.
What if you have an individual who does the work, like we're saying, they do the work.
And they work through these traumas and whatever, and they reach a good place, and then
they decide to go back drinking.
Is the drinking using still a problem?
If they're not using--
That's a very interesting question.
If they're not using too numb, they're just enjoying it.
I mean--
That's a really interesting question, because I think what I'm hearing in that is, are there,
Is there a direct link between traumatic experiences and use?
Yes.
And if we address those things, does use, like can use be reduced?
Or that's very interesting.
I never thought about that.
I was thinking about that.
I mean, obviously I don't want to test it because there might be a shit that I haven't
resolved that my addiction will find.
Right.
And when we talk about it in the rooms, we say it's an allergy of the body, what do you
know?
It's an allergy of the body obsession of the mind.
Absolutely.
Right.
And in 12 steps, those are conditions that we have to live with for the rest of our lives.
That's at least one way of thinking about it.
That's how it's one day to tell.
Well, you say, we need to find a better way to put that.
It's like, I'm off.
God damn it.
You mean to tell me I'm going to be on this program forever?
But I think, I didn't think I was good enough.
But I think that's the part that's hard to swallow is that that's just one way of looking at addiction.
Yeah, it's true.
And it's the way that like you and I look at addiction and how we live our lives.
And that's the hard part for me because I remember when I first was thinking about this,
it did feel very threatening to me.
But what I'm realizing is like a lot of things have changed, like my opinions have changed around.
A lot of things is that it's none of my fucking business.
What other people do and how they go about doing it?
- Yeah, I think that our weekly discussions,
this podcast has really helped me with that.
- Yeah. - 'Cause it's like,
it's helped me to see-- - It's helped me to--
- Well, it's helped me to see, like, okay,
so even in folks who stay in 12 step,
after a certain amount of time, after you've done
the initial, the beginning, you had to,
how recovery looks to you changes.
And I always, I'm always a belief in when I talk to people,
people it's like the key is that you get acceptance around how it works for you.
Like I think the problem that we have most of the time is like I'm concerned about
what other people think about how I'm doing it. And I need to just get people out of that
equation. It's like if I decide that I want to, I don't know, do poppers, then I get to
do poppers. But it's like I have to be okay if I come and talk about it in a meeting,
So other people aren't going to be comfortable with that.
And they might tell me that I'm not sober.
And then I get to decide, is this acceptable for me?
I had a friend who--
he's recent-- he passed, but he ended up doing poppers.
And he talked to his sponsor and a sponsor told him
that it was realips, because he had long-term sobriety.
And he couldn't handle that.
And so I think that he tried to get back into the room,
and he moved away, and then it was unfortunate.
Yeah.
I don't know.
- We can do a number on each other.
- I mean, even thinking about poppers
that could be seen as a harm reduction model.
- Right.
- That helps me enjoy what I need to enjoy.
- Oh yeah, it helps you take a bigger dick, huh?
- Oh my God.
(laughing)
And I hate that that wall.
Let's fill the space up 'cause I was gonna tell you
the name of the author of that book.
My goodness.
I know Brandon just put it.
- Right, and it's like, oh my God.
- I was like, and the author of this book is,
(laughing)
But so the book, it's a New York Times of Acceler,
it's called Dopamine Nation and it's written by Anna.
- It's a really nice house.
- Yeah, yeah, it's really cool.
It's a doctor, Anna, I think her last name is Lennbeck.
Lennbeck, her last name is spelled L-E-M-B-K-E.
It's a fantastic read.
- Yeah, she's from Stanford.
She has a few podcasts out too, if you just Google her name.
- Oh, I'll find her.
Yeah, I'll find her.
I didn't know she had a podcast.
But I like her a lot.
I'm learning a lot.
We were on fire with this conversation.
I feel like I'm gonna listen back to this cuz,
there's probably things that we can pluck from this
and have other shows.
- Yeah, I mean, remember when we were talking
after the first week, the first episode we had
in the month around this, and we walked away
like what the fuck did we, where were we talking about?
And it was because we were grappling with like
what is doing the work, right?
And I think the other thing here,
at least in our conversation is like,
I don't, I guess I didn't realize how emotionally invested I was.
And essentially like public policy or like public health approaches.
And I think it's because there aren't exactly a lot of spaces to talk about those things.
>>No, not at all.
>>Right.
>>Because people like, especially not in 12 step.
>>Yeah, not in 12 step.
>>Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And we don't really, yeah, we don't really talk about those things because they can be,
you know, they're political and they enjoy them.
But yeah, well, now I feel like I want to jump back in.
I want to see what this city is doing.
I've read a few articles,
but the city has been making some changes
after that Supreme Court ruling.
- Right, yeah.
- And I mean, I think unfortunately,
there's no perfect solution.
- Right.
- Someone's not gonna be happy regardless of what we do.
- Right, right.
But again, I think we said earlier
that we have to remind ourselves
that we are dealing with human beings.
- Right.
- Right.
has to be handled much differently than anything else.
- And thinking about that that we're dealing with human beings,
I think the problem is it seems that the city will come up
with a solution to try to throw it at the same solution
at everyone.
- Right.
- And I think the key is to be mindful that folks are,
like you said, folks are doing what they're doing.
They're in the situation for not always for the same reason.
- Right.
- And if you don't, that's where I think the consideration
has to come in if you're not able to kind of care about that.
Yeah, so.
- I feel that.
- Yeah, I think it's a bigger issue right
of how do you address?
I kind of issue.
- Which is also like a philosophical question,
which is like what is the role of government
and like what is the role of like,
what are the roles of community organizations?
It's like a bigger, right?
Like is it even the responsibility of a government
you address this, right? So it's, you know, there are a lot of questions there.
What are we going to say, Lewis?
No, I wasn't going to say anything. I was thinking, my wheels were turning. It's like, I'm
all because it can get, because it's really kind of crazy. We are deep in this idea of,
you know, transitioning governments and everything and you were saying, what is, what is a role?
And it's so damn confusing because we have one group that says, we don't want the government
or we don't want the government any size in anything,
but everything that they want to propose
has the government in it.
And the same thing on the other side,
and it's like, what the hell, man?
So I think that because we pay taxes
and because we live in it,
that it is a responsibility of the government.
Right, right.
It is a responsibility of the government.
Now, we, that means we also have responsibility,
but I don't know what that is.
I mean, I just gotta do me.
I mean, our idea of responsibility is to be flexible.
Right, because whatever interventions that our government
and force citywide, whatever, it's trial and error.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, absolutely.
And like this idea at the Navigation Center,
I have critiques about it, but it's something.
I have to be able to know that we have to try things out.
And I think that's my issue with when we voted down,
the Safe Injection site was that you haven't even
given a shot before you shoot it down.
- Yeah, yeah.
And it's so called progressive city,
and voting it down, that's a wow.
- Well, I think, you know,
I have a friend who works in policy for San Francisco,
and I think my understanding is that,
you know, the pendulum swings where you had,
you know, you had a lot of people,
and probably still in San Francisco government
that are so left to the point where it's almost like,
like a not sustainable, it's almost like,
yeah, it's almost like anarchy.
And I think you have other people in SF government
who are like, okay, we need a poll,
we need a poll back to the other side for some.
- We're absolutely filling it now because it's,
I think that like, just walking around to a Francisco
and seeing how certain things are,
- And I'll say this, can I say this,
it just occurred to me,
And I'm happy we took the risk.
Right, like I'm happy that we made the decisions
that we did, even if no one else in the country
is making them because like as a result,
like we're finding solutions of, you know what I mean?
And I think it's very easy for people in other states
to talk shit about like what it looks like.
But the point is is that--
- So you're doing the work.
- Yeah, what are your solutions?
You know what I mean?
And like how effective are they, you know?
And just throwing people in jail is not,
That is a solution, it's not the best solution.
And people use in prison, what am I talking about?
- Don't you know?
- Like, what did that toilet hooch?
- Oh, the drinking, the toilet stuff.
Yeah.
- Who is the good stuff?
- That's our NAR.
Well, we're gonna say something joining before we.
- No, I think just the reminder that like,
each person does their own work in their own way, right?
And I think we as people who are in 12 sub
have to give those folks who don't do AA but do Dharma,
do whatever, do harm reduction.
We have to give them the benefit of the doubt
that they're choosing the right choices for them.
- Or not, or not, but if I'm not the person
who is able to, if I don't have to bend with,
then I get to step aside and let somebody else do the work.
If you got nothing, I say nothing, nothing at all.
- Yeah, exactly.
- Yeah, you know, it's like, and okay,
just one more thing.
So, just one more thing.
And I think that's the hard part.
- And I think maybe that's what happens politically
is that it's very hard for people
to let other people make the decisions
that they're gonna make.
Of course, there are things that we can agree on,
mostly don't kill people.
There are things like that.
But when there's some things where there's something
about certain issues that make them so sticky
that people can't help but want to control
other people's lives.
- Right.
Abortionist.
- Oh, I mean, yeah, I was thinking about abortion.
- Because we don't just bring ourselves to the experience
without, you know, we don't have objectivity,
we bring all of our experiences and our religion
and all that stuff and all that culture
and its nonsense and I don't know.
- And I feel like there's something very patriotic.
patriotic about this conversation and that like,
and I don't know why I'm feeling compelled to say this,
but what we live in a country
we're like, we can have these conversations number one
and number two. - On a podcast?
- Yeah, like on a podcast. - On a major.
- And that like, you know, that these situations
are to generally see us nuanced, et cetera.
- But we all have to be able to compromise
at some degree.
- Right, right.
- If we're gonna live together, you know?
- 100%.
- You were listening and you haven't thought about this.
It's time to think about it.
- Think about what?
Harm reduction?
- What we've been talking about.
Because it's like, you know, how being woke is a bad word,
but it's time to wake up.
People being woke is a bad word.
- Power to the beat.
- No.
- We're not even filming right now.
We're just recording.
- I know.
- I think we're done.
- I know we are done.
- All right, thank you for listening.
- I'll happy birthday, Lewis.
Bye.
(upbeat music)
(upbeat music)